If your PC's are fighting a BBEG and it manages to get away, do you award exp? If so, how do you determine the amount of exp awarded?
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The one that got away
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 Rithralas |
The one that got away |
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Posts: 144 (10/23/07 07:31:11) What's going on? |
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PaladinTodd |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 860 (10/23/07 07:59:18) Just showed up |
I don't think there is a concrete rule. Was the BBEG "defeated" - did he run away because he was about to lose? If so, full XP could be appropriate. No XP once the bad guy returns and is finally defeated.
Did the PCs fail in stopping the retreat? Maybe 1/2 XP now, the rest when finally defeated. |
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ericjr77 |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 2570 (10/23/07 08:01:08) Mysterious |
Depends on how that particular challenge was defined.
If the challenge was supposed to be "retrieve the Gizmo of Iz", and this dude has hold of it and gets away, then merely defeating him did not answer the challenge. If the challenge is to get past the bad guy, or simply survive an encounter with him, then driving him off is one way to meet the challenge. Crepuscular amphisbaena? - allegedly seen on a "Ask Me About 4e" T-shirt at Gen Con |
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Pitchwife |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 1133 (10/23/07 10:29:03) Guildmaster Delver |
Quote:Hi Todd, Interestingly, this made total sense to me when I first read it, but now that I ponder for a moment I have to ask why you think so. If crime boss A is defeated, but not killed, and his lackeys drag his body away or something, the party will get awarded XP. If crime boss A shows up again 3 months from now, new encounter, blah blah, and the party defeats and kills him, why is there no xp for that? If he had instead been his twin brother crime boss B we'd award xp for overcoming the challenge, right? Why does the identity of the challenger matter? I acknowledge that I might just be missing something... :) Take care, Pitchwife Delver's Square
2A1S-062402-060408-N-W-348/1000-M "[T]hat's why you're the Dungeon Master, and not the Dungeon Read-Out-Louder." - Monte Cook 2007 |
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DerekDyer |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 7315 (10/23/07 12:25:50) Just showed up |
Without looking up the rules to quote them, you are supposed to get XP for defeating or circumventing a challenge. Things also could have changed from 3.0 to 3.5, but then I've never bothered to read those sections in the books.
If the BBEG chooses to flee, then you have defeated him, and you deserve XP. If the BBEG never actually engages you, and is looking to flee the whole time, then maybe it's only worth 1/2 XP. If you sneak past a pair of guards you get the XP for defeating them. |
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Monte Cook |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 9822 (10/23/07 12:43:17) Strange |
If he runs away because he was clearly defeated, they get xp.
If they fight him again after he's all healed up and ready to go and take him out, they get xp again. If they fight him 10 minutes later and he's got nothing left, then they get xp only once. The only thing to make sure is that the guy was an actual challenge both times in order to get xp twice. (Ultimately, there's no difference between defeating two owlbears or one owlbear at first strength twice.) |
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PaladinTodd |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 860 (10/23/07 14:40:29) Just showed up |
Quote: What if the party is all healed up as well? Party fights a dragon in his cave, dragon flees farther into the cave. Party rests for the night to get healed up, dragon heals up, party goes after the dragon, finishes it off. You'd give XP twice? |
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PaladinTodd |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 860 (10/23/07 14:44:05) Just showed up |
Quote: You've found the place where I don't think the rule is concrete.  For me, I award the XP based on the encounter. If the bad guy escapes and quickly comes back, then no second XP. It's the same "encounter". If a dragon is stalking a party through a swamp and they drive it off three times before finishing it, one XP. It's the same encounter. If the dragon is driven off, spends 3 months plotting, and comes back to get the PCs in town - second XP. That's two encounters. |
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Confused Jackal Mage |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 6770 (10/23/07 14:50:16) Iron Liege |
Quote: Party fights a dragon, kills it. Goes home to rest. Next day, goes out and kills the dragon's twin brother. What's the difference? "Observer-dependent physics undermines the gods' decision 3000 years ago to ban cats from straddling the borders of the netherworld. We won't have it!" "I have reservations about reconciling a quantum mechanics thought experiment with egyptian mythology." "Djinn and Juice", Dresden Codak |
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DerekDyer |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 7315 (10/23/07 19:54:45) Just showed up |
What if the party is all healed up as well? Party fights a dragon in his cave, dragon flees farther into the cave. Party rests for the night to get healed up, dragon heals up, party goes after the dragon, finishes it off. You'd give XP twice?
Yes, I'd give XP twice (if I used XP). However I don't really see why it would happen like this. If the party needs to rest, then they better leave and come back... why take the risk and camp out there? If they don't *need* to and are just taking the opportunity to because the dragon is... then seriously why aren't they pressing the advantage and just taking it down? If a dragon is stalking a party through a swamp and they drive it off three times before finishing it, one XP. It's the same encounter. I don't get it. Why is the dragon being driven off, yet choosing to return... well, ever? It just sounds like bad encounter design to me, and worse, it sounds like a mentally challenged dragon... |
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ericjr77 |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 2570 (10/23/07 22:46:58) Mysterious |
The dragon might be a specialist in skirmish or guerrila tactics, easy to imagine in a swamp. In that case, it is electing to momentarily flee in order to set up another attack, so yeah, I'd treat the whole sequence as a single encounter. It's not over until the dragon is actually deterred from its favored tactic.
Crepuscular amphisbaena? - allegedly seen on a "Ask Me About 4e" T-shirt at Gen Con |
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Pitchwife |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 1133 (10/24/07 01:12:31) Guildmaster Delver |
Let's not get toooo bogged down in the specifics of the encounter. The original poster simply mentioned a Big Bad Evil Guy. Rather than a dragon, it could be any recurring villain. You beat the evil mage, but their contingency spell whisks him away before he can be slain. He shows up to exact his revenge a month from now, and you kill him for good. Or whatever.
Point is you can defeat a foe more than once under some set of circumstances where it's a fresh fight both time. If that happens, the question is "do you get xp for both encounters?" The answer from most folks (including the author of the DMG) seems to be "yes." Fwiw, that's the answer that makes sense to me, too. Take care, Pitchwife Delver's Square
2A1S-062402-060408-N-W-348/1000-M "[T]hat's why you're the Dungeon Master, and not the Dungeon Read-Out-Louder." - Monte Cook 2007 |
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Monte Cook |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 9822 (10/24/07 06:56:21) Strange |
Quote: Of course. Quote: What does "quickly" mean in this context? A round or two? A minute? Then I'm with you. It also depends on the circumstances of his "escape." If he took a little damage and then left, intending on fighting them later, then they don't get XP for that at all--only when he comes back and they fight him "for real." The measuring stick here is resources and effort, not time. Does the foe expend (or attempt to expend) the majority of his resources twice? Then it's two for-real encounters and you get twice the xp. In this context, resources includes expendable things like hit points, spells, items, and non-expendible things like major attack and defense opportunities, such as breath weapons, big attacks, and so on. In other words, time has little to do with it. If 1st level PCs run into a large red dragon and it just laughs at them and flies away, and then three months later they return and kill it, that's one XP award, not two. |
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JoeyJoeJoeJunShabadoo |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 1633 (10/24/07 08:17:57) That's the woist name I ever hoird |
This raises one of my questions Monte. How are XP handed out for defeating the Iron Overlord?
[spoilers--DMs for Vault of the Iron Overlord eyes only] The Iron Overlord isn't one creature, but three individual constructs layered on top of one another. It's more like layers of armor, but each layer carries its own abilities and stats. [/spoilers] Each stage has a CR of 10 so is it one CR10 encounter or up to three in succession? Logic tells me the latter. I know I'm probably missing something written in the module that explains it. ------------------------------------
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of being childish and the desire to be a grown-up. -- CS Lewis |
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Monte Cook |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 9822 (10/24/07 12:51:48) Strange |
You said it yourself. Each stage is a CR 10 encounter.
So that's 3 awards for a CR 10 challenge. |
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JoeyJoeJoeJunShabadoo |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 1633 (10/24/07 13:59:30) That's the woist name I ever hoird |
Cool! Thanks. Good to know I had it right.
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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of being childish and the desire to be a grown-up. -- CS Lewis |
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raleel |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 3840 (10/25/07 08:44:03) Mysterious |
I guess I always look at it as you get xp for the encounter, not for the guys in it. If the encounter was challenging, you get XP for a challenging encounter. If it's not, then you don't
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madfox |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 7021 (10/25/07 23:02:37) That's a lot of posts. |
Quote: Doesn't that penalize smart thinking players? I mean, I like designing encounters where PCs who go head-to-head are at a considerable disadvantage to those who plan a little bit more. |
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raleel |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 3840 (10/26/07 04:41:49) Mysterious |
then design that way
I don't penalize my smart players. If they lower the challenge by smart play, I lower the reward for the challenge and up it for smart play Mostly I have a level of power I expect them to be at for the sake of the story and one way or another I get them at least close to it I guess I figure that we are supposed to adjudicate things and put things up to our judgment. DMs get to decide if Tommy or Johnny shot first when they are playing soldier, so to speak. So, exercise your judgment
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Confused Jackal Mage |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 6770 (10/26/07 06:01:54) Iron Liege |
We had a discussion about this aspect before. My thoughts were that if the players made the challenge easier through good tactics (such as actually purchasing golembane weapons when entering an area known for golems), they get XP as normal. If the DM made the challenge easier by giving the players the tools (such as putting a rack of golembane weapons just outside the golem boss's room), they get reduced XP.
"Observer-dependent physics undermines the gods' decision 3000 years ago to ban cats from straddling the borders of the netherworld. We won't have it!" "I have reservations about reconciling a quantum mechanics thought experiment with egyptian mythology." "Djinn and Juice", Dresden Codak |
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Xhyll |
Re: The one that got away | ||
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Posts: 426 (10/26/07 16:23:40) Minimum 1 pt, right? |
My only concern with returning villains and granting xp each time it looses/dies/ect. is potential for 'infinite xp loops' (kinda...). I think this fear comes from my players MMORPG experience, and their willingness to power-level in such games (something I didn't particularly care for).
The best example was this wrath that kept popping up every so many minutes/hours. The PCs could fight it every time they passed through the area, but the wrath itself was inconsequential at that point, even though it would still be worth a decent amount of xp. The group could have just sat there, killed it every time it spawned for a week or so, and had a much easier time throughout the rest of the adventure. They considered it too, until I told them they didn't get xp after their first kill... Now, I will more than happily give them xp for defeating the same encounter if it seems worth it (which means most of the time). |
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