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Tiburon Silverflame wrote:

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I hate Reflex saves that logically require the saver to actually execute a move action. For Dan's idea to work,

a) the dragon has to use Spellcraft to recognize the spell, then
b) *somehow* figure out where the spell effect is going to be placed

a) Why does the dragon need spellcraft? They all have blindsense, which means that the "invisible wall of force" isn't invisible to them.
b) How does the wall of force actually get created? Does it just appear out of thin air completely formed? Or does it start at one point and create itself along the way to the final point (like the walls are made by the bikes in Tron)? If so, he can see the spell coming and try to avoid it.

If the wall does break because the dragon's there, does the caster know exactly where? How, exactly, does the spell fail? Does the spell shatter around a dragon-shaped hole in the wall? Or does it simply not start at all?

It's not that the spell description doesn't give enough information, it's that no spell description can cover every eventuality. When in doubt, make it up and make it cool.

Tiburon Silverflame wrote:

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If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.

What part of this is unclear?

Absolutely nothing. But explain to me, then, how something can break if it never exists to be broken? I can't break the pencil sitting on my desk if it's not there for me to break. How does the wall of force "break" if it's not there to be broken?

Your "make it up, make it cool" with the implicit "the heck with any rules concepts" is totally Gygaxian...which, I'm sorry to say, is the worst insult I can make in a gaming context.

I don't mind if you don't agree with my interpretation of the rules. But I don't appreciate veiled insults.

Make it up...based on a sound understanding of rules principles. Cool would be nice, but I'm never gonna sacrifice rules consistency for coolness.

Sound understanding of the rules principles and rules consistency? Okay. Here's how I came up with my ruling.

I took a look at the various other wall spells in the SRD. Wall of ice says "Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed." Wall of iron says "Creatures with room to flee the falling wall may do so by making successful Reflex saves." Wall of stone says "Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves." Both wall of fire and wall of thorns can be made directly on a creature with no save. So rules consistency is pretty much out the window on wall spells.

But with a wall of ice, how could you disrupt it if you didn't know where it was going? The spell mentions "as it is being formed," meaning it's not instantaneous. With a wall of stone, if the wall were created instantaneously, how could you avoid entrapment? To make a reflex save you would need at least a split second to see the wall coming and avoid it. So using those two examples, coupled with what I said earlier about the wall of force breaking, I ruled that it doesn't form instantaneously; you can see it coming (as long as you can see invisible things).

Now, one wall spells lets you disrupt the wall from forming with a reflex save while another lets you avoid the wall with a reflex save. So I came up with the idea of allowing a reflex save to avoid the wall if you see it coming.

Now, the wall is invisible. Dragons have blindsense, so it's not invisible to them. I made the assumption that the dragon is lying in wait for them, since it's invisible, so I assume it's readied to take an action. Since the dragon is readied to act and can see the wall coming, I would give him a reflex save to avoid it. I wouldn't rule that he needs a spellcraft check since he can see the wall coming. And I assume that the dragon would want to move so that he maintains the element of surprise.

To take it a step further, whether the dragon made his save or not I would have him make a move silently check opposed by the PCs listen checks. If the dragon stopped the wall from forming, I would also let the spellcaster know where the spell stopped.

If you don't agree with how I would rule the situation, that's fine. But I think it's much more fun than saying "Your spell fails." And remember, the very next question to be answered would be "Why did it fail?"

Tiburon Silverflame wrote:

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But explain to me, then, how something can break if it never exists to be broken?

Grammatic error on their part. Change the tense to future imperfect..."would be broken".

I don't believe it is a grammatical error. If it were the entire sentence would be redundant.

I'm a rogue, I'm invisible but with a ring of True Seeing on. I have a held action. Opposition caster wants to cast a wall of force. I could see it form, by your ruling. Let's say it'll pass through a square adjacent to me. Can I interfere with the spell? NO. There is nothing in the spell mechanic that supports this.

The rogue can five foot step into the wall's path. As per the spell's description, "If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails." That's part of the reason why I'm ruling it the way I do; so that entire sentence has actual meaning.

The spell ONLY says, the wall of force does not form. It does NOT say it 'flows through' to some termination point, then collapses, thus justifying the "aha! there's something invisible there!" that you want. The spell fails. That's a mechanical statement made by the DM. Fine, the wizard asks why? He's asking himself, cuz me, the DM, am DAMN SURE not answering. That's for him to figure out.

It absolutely justifies that there's something invisible there, whether it's an exact point because the wall begins to form from a single point or somewhere along the wall if it appears instantaneously; it's pretty much the only way the spell will fail upon casting, because again, as per the spell description, "If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails." In other words, there had to have been something there to break the spell, and if you can't see it, it must be invisible. And if I were the DM, I would tell the player why the spell failed. The player might not know, but the wizard would know the spell's limitations, and as the DM I would tell him so that the game didn't come to a screeching halt while the player tried to puzzle out something his wizard would easily know.