Armiger replacement- The Stalwart. Not all toughguys wear fullplate.

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Hydromaster113	Armiger replacement- The Stalwart. Not all toughguys wear fullplate.	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4004 (06/10/09 09:20:08) Some guy posting for a long time Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : armiger, class, coreclass Like with the kengo, I tried to take what I felt was too narrow and equipment-dependant an idea (weapon mastery there, armor focus here) and make it more general. The stalwart isn't the "armored guy", he's the "tough guy". But while the kengo was designed to make the wapanese in me happy, the stalwart is much more rooted in western ideals of knights in shining armor or strong, silent gunslingers: tough, driven, competent. Nothing too showy, but he gets it done. If the kengo fights like water then the stalwart is the rock- stable, direct and unyielding. "One source of inspiration for the kengo was Clash of Blades, by Ian Watt. Similarly, a big inspiration for this class was Gareth in A Handful of Sand. Odds are the author is an armiger fan who will wish to choke me for this, but in my mind Tucker is definitely a stalwart. He isn't really fixated on his armor, and it isn't at the core of his fighting style; he's good with armor, yea, but he's mainly just a brave and persistant fighter. And that's enough. That's the kind of guy the stalwart class is for. STALWART The best offense is a good defense, says the stalwart. He is the wall which stops armies, the shield that shelters friends, the stone on which foes break their teeth. He is a warrior's warrior, a tower of strength and stability amid the tumult and chaos of combat, and there is no foe whom he dare not face in an honest fight. A stalwart's approach to combat is simple- hit them head-on, show no weaknesses for your enemies to exploit, and you will persevere. It would be a fatal error to mistake him for a common brute, however- his wooden tenacity, steely will and iron-clad courage carry him far past the point where lesser men would have laid down and died. Constitution is the backbone of the stalwart class. Even with a low con a stalwart is no pushover, but in order to truly excel he must not hesitate to put himself in harm's way. A stalwart's offense usually depends on strength (these fighters hold their ground rather than dancing and dodging about, and a high dexterity would avail them little). Some stalwart may find intelligence useful for its roll in tactics feats, though there are always those who get along just fine without it. Hit die: 1d4+8/level SKILL GROUPS The stalwart gains access to the athletics skill group. Many also buy ranks in perception skills, which are as useful to a seasoned lieutenant as they are to a city watchman or professional bodyguard. Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Intelligence modifier) X 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier FEATS Stalwart gain excellent (2-10) access to armor feats, good (1-9) access to power feats, and fair (0-8) access to defense and tactics feats. Stalwart may favor straight-forward techniques but they are still exceptionally competent individuals who are exposed to a wide range of martial skillsets. BASE ATTACK AND DEFENSE Stalwart use the "Average" progressions for both base attack and base defense. CLASS FEATURES A stalwart's class features are not dependant on gaining or spending tokens, nor do they have limited uses per encounter. Stalwart are more reliable than many warriors in this respect- they don't run out of steam until their body hits the ground. Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The stalwart is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armor and all shields. The Long Haul: A stalwart gains bonus reserve points equal to half his maximum HP (so that, for example, a stalwart with 20 hitpoints has 30 reserve points, rather than the usual 20). Multiclass stalwart only apply this bonus to hp derived from stalwart levels (calculate what the character's hitpoints would be without any levels in other classes- but including those granted by feats or traits- and grant him bonus reserve points equal to half this sum). Guts: Stalwart thrive on adversity- they are at their best when they need to be at their best, which is to say when things are looking worst. A stalwart reduced to half his maximum hitpoints or less, or who has had any ability score reduced to half or less, gains a +1 bonus to all attack rolls and saving throws. At level 5 this bonus increases to +2. Tough as Nails: Killing a stalwart is never easy. Add the negative of your level to your "disabled" and "dying" thresholds (so a level 2 stalwart is disabled at 0, -1, or -2 hitpoints, dying at -3, and must save vs. death at -12). You gain Toughness as a bonus feat. If you already have this feat, you may choose any other feat with a mastery rating of 1 or less that you qualify for. Strong as an Ox: Stalwarts are incredibly rugged individuals, even for their size; they are used to heavy labor and hard to push around. Add the stalwart's constitution bonus (if positive) to his strength score; treat this as his new strength score for purposes of resisting trip, grapple, overrun and bullrush attempts, as well as to determine how much gear he can carry and how easily. For instance, a stalwart with a Str of 15 and a Con of 16 would have an effective strength score of 18 (and thus a +4 bonus) for these purposes. You gain Endurance as a bonus feat. If you already have this feat, you may choose any other feat with a mastery rating of 1 or less that you qualify for. Stubborn as Hell: The courage and tenacity of your kind is the stuff of legends- you simply don't know when to quit. Whenever you fail a will save (or another roll made in place of a will save) to diminish or negate any effect, you may make a new will save (and only a will save) at the beginning of your next turn. If successful, you either reduce or throw off the effect, as appropriate. Even if you fail, you may keep attempting new saves at the beginning of your turn (once per round per effect) for the rest of the fight. Out of combat, you may attempt a new save every ten minutes for the first hour and (for long-term mental domination and the like) at least once per day thereafter, up to a number of days equal to your constitution bonus. You gain Diehard as a bonus feat. If you already have this feat, you may choose any other feat with a mastery rating of 2 or less that you qualify for. Stalwart Abilities: Whenever this class feature comes up, you may choose one ability from the following list: Armor Training: You treat all manufactured armor as one size category lighter. You also increase its max dex bonus by +1, and decrease its armor check penalty by 1 (minimum 0). Bite the Bullet: Once per round, when an attack against you would have missed, you may allow it to hit you. After this attack is resolved, you may make an attack of opportunity against the attacker. If you use this attack to make a disarm attempt you do not provoke an attack of opportunity in turn or risk being disarmed yourself. Brace Yourself: As a standard action at the beginning of a fight, you may draw strength from deep within you, bracing yourself for the trial to come. You may spend up to 2 reserve points per Stalwart level, in order to gain 1 temporary hitpoint for every 2 reserve points spent. Just a Flesh Wound: Stalwart soldier on in spite of wounds which look like they would drop a lesser mortal. Whenever an attack deals sneak-attack damage to you, scores a critical hit, or gains some other type of precision-based damage (at dm's discretion), you may make a fortitude save to reduce this damage (but not the attack's base damage) by half. Add your total DR roll as a bonus to this save. The difficulty class equals the enemy's attack roll (or the conformation roll for a crit). Dogged Adversary: At any point during a fight you may select a foe. You gain a +2 bonus to attacks of opportunity against that opponent, and any time you threaten them they take a -2 penalty to attacks against anyone but you. If that foe tries to escape you you gain a +2 moral bonus to any rolls made to pursue them (climb or swim checks to follow, strength checks to kick down doors, overrun checks to trample bodyguards, etc). Grit: Displaying a steely will and exceptional ability to compensate for adversity in combat, you reduce by half any and all penalties to attacks, damage rolls, saves or checks which an enemy attack or ability might impose, magical or otherwise. This bonus also extends to environmental effects (such as sticky tar dumped on you by a kobold trap), but never to penalties which result from your own feats, abilities or equipment (such as the penalty imposed by the Power Attack feat). Human Fortress: Any ally of yours may (if you desire) enter your square as a standard action. For the rest of the round they may use your defense in place of their own if it is higher, and you may automatically take the damage from any attack directed against them, provided that the attack does not exceed your defense by 10 or more. Likewise, if you are both subjected to an area effect with a reflex save for half damage, you may fail your save voluntarily to cover for them: if either of your save results are high enough they take half, and if both saves succeed they take no damage rather than half (as if they had the evasion class feature or stood behind improved cover). You suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls while covering for an ally in this way, and they must spend a standard action every turn in order to continue ducking and dodging behind you. Standing Death: A stalwart's body does not fall when he is killed- it stands rigid but tall, hands locked around sword and shield, in last defiance of defeat. Enemies may hesitate to go near, and those with poor perception might not realize that he has died. Unless his body is physically destroyed (by dealing another 50 points of damage to it), the deceased stalwart may take one more partial action at any point in the next five rounds, like the severed head of a snake which can still sting the unwary hand. Bonus Feat: Stalwart gain bonus feats at 9th, 13th, and 17th level. They may choose any general feat or any feat with the [Armor], [Power] or [Tactics] descriptor, provided they meet its prerequisites as normal. Damage Reduction: At 10th level, a stalwart gains natural damage reduction 1/-. This damage stacks with (applies as a bonus to) damage reduction of any other sort, but remains even if that other type is negated. At 14th level this improves to 2/- (or a +2 bonus to DR rolls), at 18th level to 3/- (or +3), and at 20th to 4/- (or +4). Why Won't He Die: The tenacity of some heroes transcends the frailty of the flesh. A 20th level stalwart who would be killed in combat continues to act as if alive (albet disabled) until 2d4 rounds have elapsed or until he has taken an additional 75 points of damage. During this time he gains a +10 bonus to all attacks, saves and checks, and all his attacks deal maximum damage. PLAYING A STALWART Though military academies can easily produce stalwart, this also seems like one of the classes most likely to arise without any formal training: their abilities have less to do with what they know and more to do with the stuff they're made of. They might be the sons of kings or the sons of slaves- anywhere one might find a stout heart and a sword or hammer, one might find a stalwart. But it is rarely a comfortable life which forges a man or woman such as this; when a warrior seems untroubled by suffering it is often because he has known little else. Often, the stalwart's mental (and physical) strength is the result of years of rigid discipline and conditioning, and this military or religious grooming shines through in their fine-chiseled manners. Others are just crotchety old bastards from birth, rough-edged and hard as hickory, and make no more apologies for their words than for the blows they land in combat; others still have no love for words at all, letting their eyes (or their blades) do the talking. CAMPAIGN MODELS In Shining Armor: In a world where battlescars serve as badge of ranks and where dying in an honest fight is better than winning by trickery, the stalwart becomes the standard by which all others are judged. These warriors wear the most expensive armor, ride the finest of steeds, and join battle for lord, faith, friendship or country without hesitation or regret. Their valor becomes the stuff of song, and their iron-clad devotion burns as a shining example to those under them. Street Toughs: In this model, the virtues of the common warrior are held in low esteem- they are regarded as naught but thugs, sloppy and unrefined, who wear pounds of metal to stop the attacks that they're too dim to dodge. Flashy fencers and dance-fighters are held in high regard by the decadent nobility, performing scenarios far-removed from the tumult of a real fight, while simpler combatants are relegated to the rolls of bodyguards or leg-breakers. Few among them covet the glory of their lessors, however; they grow streetwise and hardy amid the rats and the assassins, and those who survive year after year become men and women to be reckoned with. STRATEGY Get into the thick of things and stay there. You are the team's anvil- if enemies are attacking you, that means they aren't attacking your more-fragile friends, which leaves them free to employ their own unique talents without fear. Even (or especially) in seemingly-insignificant battles this is important- if the harrier or the executioner get to enter the final confrontation with full (rather than half) hitpoints, they can afford to stand all the bolder at your side. If you aren't being attacked or harassed by enemies, you're doing something wrong. Due to their hitpoints as well as their several resistances, stalwart can afford to take risks that others can't. For example, a stalwart with Stubborn as Hell is very hard to pin down with mental effects- if anyone is going to try charging through the curtain of shifting, howling shadows which the barron's witch casts about herself, it should probably be you. STALWART CLASS FEATURES BY LEVEL: 1.....The Long Haul, Guts +1 2.....Tough as Nails 3.....Strong as an Ox 4.....Stubborn as Hell 5.....Guts +2 6..... 7.....Stalwart Ability 8.....Standing Death 9.....Bonus Feat 10....DR 1 11....Stalwart Ability 12.... 13....Bonus Feat 14....DR 2 15....Stalwart Ability 16.... 17....Bonus Feat 18....DR 3 19....Stalwart Ability 20....DR 4, Why Won't He Die This kind of goes without saying around here, but just to reitterate, ANY sort of feedback is appreciated. I have pretty thick skin; you won't always change my mind but you're not going to offend me either. ~Hydro The Pathfinder RPG As if you haven't heard of it. Last Edited By: Hydromaster113 06/10/09 16:03:26. Edited 4 times.
MadmanAtW		#1	[-]
Posts: 86 (06/10/09 10:46:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I like this a lot. Very different from the Armiger while filling a similar role- I think a game could survive with both classes in it. I really really like the Human Fortress ability and if I don't import this class I may steal it for the next iteration of my revamped armiger. I do wonder a bit if the class might not suffer from some of the same issues that the standard issue Armiger did- almost all of its abilities are defensive and help keep it alive, and it's not a bigger damage dealer than most of the other classes, so once again it might find itself in the position of last to fall because the enemy focuses on the more deadly and more droppable party members. The main exceptions to this are the Marklike ability (Dogged Adversary) and the simple fact that the Stalwart will likely be the first into the enemy lines. Well, and that the original Armiger got actively more powerful when he was attacked, which at least isn't true here, there's no reason to actively avoid hitting the Stalwart. He's just harder to drop than most other classes and not that threatening, since most of his abilities are there to make him hard to drop. This would be a straight up awesome character to play in a solo game. Those are some first-read thoughts. Sometime when I'm not at work I'll give an even closer look.
Hydromaster113		#2	[-]
Posts: 4010 (06/10/09 16:32:36) Some guy posting for a long time Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You're probably right; two classes don't need altogether different archetypes to coexist in a game, they just both need to be balanced and to bring something different to the table. And steal whatever you like; we're all friends here. =) I feel that the main problem with the armiger, however, is the way the mechanics encourage him to take Armor Mastery over and over. The stalwart (at low levels) can take just as many power feats as a berserker or executioner. If he's dealing 1d8+3 once per round (because he spent all his feats on defense as well), that's the player's fault for making a lopsided character. Guts gives a small attack bonus at times, but for the most part (at low levels) I presumed that the player would rely on his feats and traits to build his offense. I think a class can be largely (though not completely) defensive-focused and still be viable. Having a strong defense after all means that you can afford to attack more boldly, and to go where your attacks are needed. Also, if he is getting tripped less because of Strong as an Ox, or can act freely more often because of Stubborn as Hell, that means he's more functional more often (which translated directly into a greater damage output). However, a class that is completely defensive focused is useless. A player character who is completely invulnerable but deals zero damage is of course suboptimal no matter what level you're at, and a mid- or high-level character who is too defensive focused may suffer for the same reasons (though to varying degrees). After all, as a character approaches high levels the weight of his ability scores, traits, and starting feats count for less and less. You can contribute offensively with 1d8+3 at level 1, but at level 15 that counts for essentially nothing. And feats can't completely make up the difference (not when the executioner is dealing 1d6+8d6+1, and then getting just as many feats as you on top of that). I tried to keep this in mind, and this is why the nature of the class shifts around level 8. He gets a bonus feat (which can be a power or tactics feat) every four levels, and also a stalwart ability (of which there are a couple offensive option; Grit which will keep his attacks from being hampered, and Bite the Bullet which grants an extra attack) every four as well. That's a feat every other level (same as a man-at-arms)- more than that when you consider that Stalwart Abilities are often better than feats- on top of which the innate DR and d4+8 hitpoint rolls are just gravy. But as we all know, man-at-arm feats will prove more potent in practice because they have so many ways to achieve offensive synergy, which (it was my hope) will cause it to balance out in the end. Do you think there should be more offensive (or disabling) Stalwart Abilities? My prevaling impression, in the last stages of brainstorm/layout, was "this is looking a little too good", so I was stingy with the smack-down/smack-back powers (and also reordered the abilities to grant 3 bonus feats rather than 4). One idea that got cut (but will probably be transplanted to a feat mastery) was granting a fairly large bonus to one attack per round, but only against a foe who has damaged you (representing the unflinching focus needed to lash just as you are hit). And thanks as always for the feedback, MM. ~Hydro The Pathfinder RPG As if you haven't heard of it.
MadmanAtW		#3	[-]
Posts: 90 (06/18/09 13:24:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ok, I haven't looked at this again yet and I've been meaning to, so I'm printing it out to look at on my public transit ride home.
Confused Jackal Mage		#4	[-]
Posts: 6744 (06/19/09 13:31:22) Iron Liege Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The same to me. I just haven't had the time to digest it properly yet. I'm on vacation all next week, though, so I'll have some free time. Imagine the culture we would live in now if, instead of a dead corpse on an instrument of torture, our signifier was a child staring in wonder at the stars.
MadmanAtW		#5	[-]
Posts: 92 (06/21/09 12:50:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A quick question- what does "As a standard action at the beginning of a fight" mean? You must use the standard action during the first round that you act in this encounter?
DuelingBlue		#6	[-]
Posts: 123 (06/21/09 13:31:13) Spooky Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Looks very, very neat. I really, really love the long haul ability. Many kudos for that. It's simple, elegant, makes sense, and works very well. I haven't had time to properly digest it yet. My only suggestion for right now would be some way to allow you to use Why Won't He Die without the character dying. The way I'm reading it, it only activates once the character is dead(failed a death's door fort save). I'd suggest clarification if I'm reading it wrong, some method to activate a slightly lesser version at disabled, or a way for the stalwart to survive through it. Auto-stabilize at the end, maybe? ~Happy Holiday Gaming!
Hydromaster113		#7	[-]
Posts: 4022 (06/21/09 22:23:29) Some guy posting for a long time Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Standing Death and Why Won't He Die are classfeatures that no one will get to use more than once per campaign. This is intentional and I really don't want them to work any other way (he has plenty of other class features that keep him alive; those two are about 'dying hard'). These abilities may never kick in at all, but if they do, it will be during the hardest fight the stalwart (and his party) has ever seen, and what the stalwart does with those extra actions could easily become the stuff of pre-session warstories years down the line. However, I have thought of giving them earlier and offering something else at 10th and 20th level. One of my main concerns is that offering them as "capstone" abilities puts a lot of emphasis on them, and might almost make the DM feel obligated to kill the stalwart before the campaign ends, which isn't what I want. Thoughts? I've considered a "you kick ass while disabled" class feature. That's mainly what Tough as Nails is (by increasing his "disabled' range it lets him stay in the fight long after his enemies might count him out). However, the next step after that would be to let him take full actions while disabled; I don't like that at all, because it's effectively the same as giving him extra HP (the above 0/below 0 distinction stops being important). A power that gives him some large bonus while disabled feels just a little awkward ("He gets a +5 bonus to attack rolls but he can't even take a full-round action?"), though on second thought it does have a certain iconic feel to it, with the rugged warrior dragging himself across the floor and making a single slow, purposeful attack. Alternately I could let him start taking full-round actions once he's "really dying" (i.e. once he's past death's door but hasn't failed a fortitude save yet), representing that final burst of energy in a way that doesn't necessarily guarantee his death. Still, at that point he's probably not going to make it out alive, so it wouldn't be that different in practice. ~Hydro The Pathfinder RPG As if you haven't heard of it.
DuelingBlue		#8	[-]
Posts: 124 (06/22/09 06:02:56) Spooky Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree that it's a hard thing to fix. I'd give serious consideration to combining those two abilities or giving them earlier. If I were to do that, I'd set the damage to stop the armiger as the same for both abilities. Either 50, or half of armiger's max hp. I kind of feel like there should be a more offensive oriented ability in one of the capstones. Maybe an increase in damage if the armiger goes under 25%? Or even the ability to add half or all of his con score to his str score for damage. Those feel unoriginal, but they might work. The only thing original that I've come up with is not offense based. How about something to stave off actually dying just a bit longer? For example... Level 10 version Deathless Tenacity: Even with wounds that would have killed many a hero, the stalwart's very flesh and bones refuse to die without a fight. The stalwart gains +5 to death's door fortitude saves. Furthermore, the stalwart may roll twice and take the better of the two options. Level 20 version Deathless Tenacity: Even with wounds that would have killed many a hero, the stalwart's very flesh and bones refuse to die without a fight. The stalwart gains +10 to death's door fortitude saves. Furthermore, if it possible to succeed at a Death's Door fortitude save, the stalwart automatically does. There ya go! Muddied the waters a bit more. ~Happy Holiday Gaming!
MadmanAtW		#9	[-]
Posts: 94 (06/22/09 18:46:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A couple more questions, beyond my one about "at the beginning of a fight" from earlier: Re Guts: I just wanted to note that it's possible for someone to choose not to heal from their reserve pool. This would allow them to keep the Guts bonus, but (of course) at risk of getting killed. Seems like a fine tradeoff to me, but I wanted to point it out in case it was unintended or undesired. Bite the Bullet: This gives you an attack of opportunity. The description goes on to state what happens if you use this AoO to make a disarm attack. Do you have a house rule that allows disarm AoOs? By the RAW, it isn't allowed.
Hydromaster113		#10	[-]
Posts: 4026 (06/22/09 20:14:25) Some guy posting for a long time Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sorry, I skipped your first question ATM. I would allow Brace Yourself to be used either durring a surprise round or durring the first full round of combat. When I wrote it, though, I was leaning on the precidence of Overwhelming Presence (which requires you to take a move action at the beginning of a fight), and they should probably both be ruled the same way. I was aware of the ability to prolongue the Guts bonus, and the reason it never goes past +2 was that I didn't want to encourage that kind of cheese. Walking into a fight with half your hitpoints missing (just for a +2 bonus) is a pretty bad move; if we were talking +4 or +5, though, it might be tempting. More of a concern for me was the potential for a stalwart to take charisma damage (perhaps even sacrificing it willingly to power some magic feat or item) and then just not heal it. Having your CHA dropped to 4 is no problem at all until the DM drops a few ghosts on you. Do you think I should amend that to refer only to HP damage? Or, perhaps to HP or physical ability damage? I did not know that you couldn't disarm with an attack of opportunity in Iron Heroes. That's one of those niggling changes that I completely missed. In my game I use normal 3.5 rules for most of the "combat" chapter (attacks of opportunity, reach weapons, etc; everything but stunts and feats). Just the same, I'll change that when I get around to making a first-edit, and thanks for pointing it out. DuelingBlue- while they do it in a different way, I think that the rules you suggest might be a little redundant with "Tough as Nails". I don't want to increase the time that the stalwart can spend below 0 hp by too much; after all, he has so many hitpoints that he's rarely going to get there anyway. I don't want to commit a ton of class features to that tiny segment of his character sheet. I like the idea of a bonus to the save vs. death, however. Suppose we took your text for "deathless tenacity" but applied it to all "saves vs. death" (whether made against a poison, a necromancy effect, or while at death's door)? I ment to add something that also made him good at fort. (rather than just will) saves but I never got around to it. "...the stalwart's very flesh and bones refuse to die" is a good bit of text by the way. Can I use that? ~Hydro The Pathfinder RPG As if you haven't heard of it.
MadmanAtW		#11	[-]
Posts: 96 (06/22/09 21:23:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Overwhelming presence has info on the errata wiki: "You can activate Overwhelming Presence at any time during an encounter. The wording 'at the start of an encounter' is intended to indicate that you can't use this ability before and encounter, not that you can't use it in the 2nd or subsequent rounds. In other words, you can't walk around with this ability 'always on', you need to take an action during the encounter to use it. The benefits last until the end of the encounter. " Does the Brace Yourself ability mean that you spend the standard action for the result of that action is that you trade RP for temp HP? If so it might be easier to just say "once per encounter you may..." As for keeping the ability damage, while moving RP to HP is voluntary healing HP and ability damage doesn't appear to be. The Stalwart would have to refuse to get 8 hours of sleep each night to keep the damage. As such I think it's ok as written. Yeah, someone could "cheese" it a bit by drastically dropping one stat and trying to take damage in it, but (a) what kind of stat damage someone takes is usually in the GM's hands, and a GM can really torment someone with an awful stat if the GM so chooses. And really, as you say, the bonus just isn't high enough to justify it. It's a cool pick-me-up for getting hurt, but not so good it's worth cheesing.
Hydromaster113		#12	[-]
Posts: 4027 (06/22/09 23:42:09) Some guy posting for a long time Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Do'h. You've got me again (and I should have remembered reading that one; I played a thief in one of Crow's games!). In that case, yes, you can use it at any point in the fight. You probably want to use it early, though, because of how temporary hitpoints work (and because here, any left over at the end of the fight are wasted, and you paid for them at a two-for-one rate). And I will probably change the wording to just say "once per encounter". You're probably right about cheese within the core rules, but the more I think about it, the more I think that this would be unintendedly good when coupled with anything that lets you take ability damage (from an unused stat) to power some feat or class feature. Not my problem? Perhaps, considering that there is nothing like that in the core rules, but as collaberative as the IH houserule collective is its nice to make mechanics that play well with other (completely theoretical) mechanics. It's a small change at any rate. (For anyone who is wondering, I am unlikely to actually do a 'new version' of the class until I have a whole pile of little changes saved up, a clear idea of how to fix all the problems that I've imagined, and one of those evenings when you're just begging the internet to give you something to do. But I am still paying close attention to all this. =) ) ~Hydro The Pathfinder RPG As if you haven't heard of it.
DuelingBlue		#13	[-]
Posts: 125 (06/23/09 06:13:41) Spooky Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"...the stalwart's very flesh and bones refuse to die" is a good bit of text by the way. Can I use that? Yeah, feel free. ~Happy Holiday Gaming!
MadmanAtW		#14	[-]
Posts: 99 (06/23/09 08:53:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hydromaster113 wrote: You're probably right about cheese within the core rules, but the more I think about it, the more I think that this would be unintendedly good when coupled with anything that lets you take ability damage (from an unused stat) to power some feat or class feature. Hmm, yes, I think you're right. I hadn't thought about that possibility.
MadmanAtW		#15	[-]
Posts: 100 (06/23/09 16:05:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ok, I've been thinking about this for a bit now and there are some things that I feel need some work for the class to be a good choice. As it stands if I were playing in a single-PC game I would love to play this class, it has a lot going for it there. But in a party... it feels weak and it feels less interactive. And not just because it doesn't have tokens, but because you're pretty deep into the class before it gives you a shot at any ability you can choose to use. (Let me edit in a sentence to reassert that I like the concept and am tossing out this much stuff because I hope it's helpful, but because I want to come off as dismissive or anything. It's the internet, where tone makes everyone sound like they might be serial killers, so I just don't want this to look at all mean spirited!) L1 you get The Long Haul, which is definitely nice, but has no effect on any individual combat (until Brace Yourself), and looks likely to suffer from the inverse of the old wizard out of spells error- sure, you can keep going, but your party needs to stop and rest. Works best if you're getting disproportionately beat up. Also, you get Guts +1. A good ability but not one that you can usually choose to activate, and, again, comes up only if you're getting beat up badly. L2 adds Tough as Nails. This only comes up if you are beaten up very badly. Toughness is a nice bonus, but it's one that only comes up (say it with me now) if you are getting beaten up badly, for the most part. (Now, I really like the Tough as Nails ability, I should note. But it's defensive entirely.) L3 adds Strong as an Ox. This is entirely passive and defensive. It's nice to be able to better resist those bonus attacks, but it doesn't give you anything active to do (except occasionally try to put yourself in a position that might be less tenable to a class that is easier to bull rush, or something). L4 adds Stubborn as Hell. Another passive defensive ability, and what's more I don't really see Will saves coming up as often in IH as they do in 3.5, especially at lower level. Not an ability I would kick out of bed for eating crackers, but not something I'm saying "ooh" about, either. L5 adds more Guts, and L6 is blank. L7 gives you your first Stalwart Ability. Many of these are active. That means you've gotten to level 7 before you've gotten any abilities that let you do something cool in combat besides not die (which you are exceptional at). Almost all of your abilities up until now only come into play if you're getting beat up, and every other class except possibly the RAW Armiger is a better target for the foes on the battlefield, because until you've been knocked to 50% health there is nothing in your class features that makes you more threatening than anyone else could get. As such it's the RAW Armiger problem again- you need to play the character in such a fashion as to become a target- wade into battle first, take stupid risks. But eventually everybody else except probably the archer, hunter, and arcanist are going to have to get in there to start dealing some damage of their own, and as soon as someone is threatening a Stalwart and an Executioner at the same time there's no question who should be on the receiving end of a beatdown. And unfortunately, out of the list of Stalwart abilities, only two jump out as not requiring people to already want to beat you. (Bite the Bullet is fun but triggers off of being attacked.) Those are Dogged Adversary- an activatable bonus to hit and reason for someone to prefer to beat on you; and Human Fortress. You do get 3 bonus feats, which is good. Suggestions for fixing him... I'm honestly not sure. He's a cool idea and he certainly does do the "unkillable and unstoppable" thing well. But to me he doesn't give an compelling reason to want to play him and he looks to shape up to be the runt in any individual combat. Maybe I underestimate how much you can play to the Stalwart's strengths by how you play him, but I think all those ways should work equally well for the RAW Armiger, and my feelings on him are pretty clear based on my constant revising of the class. He could get more bonus feats and sooner, essentially trading off some of the bonus feats and the wild cards for unkillability, but that's less interesting. I think maybe there should be increased focus on his indominability. Something like Elusive Target, but offensive- pick a foe and every time you hit him you get better at hitting him, or something. A bonus to offensive bull rushes and overruns. He's the Juggernaut, b*tch! Maybe some ideas stolen from Arcana Evolved's Oathsworn- maybe he can pick a "goal" periodically and gets bonuses on anything towards completing that goal. I hope something there is helpful. Also, I acknowledge that you might just entirely disagree with me about the utility of the abilities that trigger on being beaten up, and that may be so! I haven't actually playtested this guy or anything, this is just from on paper inspection. ...This guy would make a seriously fun villain class, though. This occurred to me because I was about to say "maybe I'll toss one in on next session just to see what happens..." The PCs are going to need to clear the field, so even if the Stalwart can't protect his friends he'll eventually get taken to 50% health and then taken out. He'll enjoy all of his abilities, even the one time on death abilities. His repeated will saves will help against PCs that like Intimidation effects. He'd be pretty scary there. Ok, I'm at work (again, sheesh) and need to head home. More later if I think of anything.
Hydromaster113		#16	[-]
Posts: 4033 (06/23/09 21:08:57) Some guy posting for a long time Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To start with, I should note (actually, I should have noted when I first posted the class) that he isn't SUPPOSED to have a lot of complex or active abilities. It was implied by Mearls that the Man-at-Arms was intended for novice players or those who always played the simple classes (i.e fighter, paladin) in vanilla- a class with no resources to manage that's easy to play. I don't think it does the job very well, however, just because the feat chapter in IH is so overwhelming. So yes, the stalwart comes with the least baggage out of any IH class in terms of active choices and resource management, but that's intentional. Keep in mind that he still gets four feats over his first four character levels, just by virtue of being an Iron Heroes character, and that there is nothing saying you have to spend them all on Armor Mastery and Shield Mastery (in fact, you probably shouldn't). I think it's important to draw a distinction between "underpowered" and "booring", as well; they're both valid criticisms but they're completely different. Now, about the level-by-level breakdown. First up I want to say that I appreciate that you've but that much effort and thought into feedback, and don't think otherwise just because I don't always agree with you. ^_^ I'll talk about the first five levels first, as my approach to the class changes at level 7. Now, let's talk about first level. First, Long Haul shouldn't necessarially be looked at as a 1st-level ability, because its effects are directly preportionate to level. It's offers a boost across the board and at all levels. Yes, it -does- offer a boost at 1st level (and then at 2nd, and then at 3rd), but only a small one, as you've illustrated. Though I do think it might count for less at high levels because low-level characters are more fragile. You're right that he won't use all of those RP every adventure, even if he does put his neck out more than anyone else in the group, and that's alright. Better to have and not need than need and not have. But when the party is battered down and forced to join battle with half their hitpoints missing, the stalwart will be there in peak shape to help cover for them, and that's when it will really count. Now, Guts. Guts gives a +1 bonus to attack rolls and (all) saving throws when your are at half hitpoints or less. +1 attack rolls is worth a feat, and +1 to all saving throws is worth a feat as well, so if that were on all the time it would be 2 feats worth of power. Will the stalwart be at half HP or less half the time, for me to count this as one feat worth of power? Perhaps he will, perhaps he won't, but if he isn't then he isn't being threatened and doesn't really need the bonus anyway. I have this theory about this kind of class feature: I think an ability that kicks in right when you need it is almost as good as one which functions all the time, while one which kicks in when you don't need it is worth quite a bit less. Consider Cleave. Cleave grants an extra attack, which is extremely powerful, but it only grants it when you don't really need it- you'll get it every round when you're moping up mooks, but only every few rounds or not at all against tougher opponents. Great Cleave (or, EM3, I believe) grants UNLIMITED (well, theoretically unlimited) extra attacks, but it is commonly regarded as much weaker than Cleave, the reason being that it only works when you're bulldozing kobolds. This is similar to the reason why 1/day abilities can't be 10 or 20 times better than at-will abilities, and why a warlock's attacks can be almost as good as a wizard's even though he uses them twice as often. If you can choose when a power kicks in, then you're getting it when you really NEED it, durring the encounters that pose a real threat to your party. And the same is true, I think, of an ability that kicks in when you're half dead. You may view this differently, but every time you say (and I'm saying it with you ~^) "it only counts when he's getting beat up badly", I hear "it only counts when it really needs to count". I think the first level dip compares well with the man-at-arms, if we assume that Guts is worth 1 feat (and I think it's a high-end feat, for the reason above). He has a feat-sized benefit in Guts, plus all the weapon and armor proficiencies of a MaA, less skills and feat access (one good and one excellent mastery), but 2 more hitpoints and another ten or so reserve points. I think he'll hold his own as a first-level character (remember that this is when everyone is most fragile and hitpoints are most important) and that the one-level dip is a tempting option for an executioner or harrier looking to toughen up a bit. 2nd and 3rd level: By this point he has gotten two more feats to the MaA's one, PLUS the extra benefits of Tough as Nails and Strong as an Ox (effectively 1 quasi-hp per level and a moderate bonus vs. special attacks), AND he's still getting more hitpoints and more reserve points than the MaA. Overpowered? Perhaps in terms of raw numbers, but not in practice. Once you've invested more than one level in the class, you really start to see the tactical disadvantages that you have elaborated on. There is a reason I give him so much, with a bonus feat AND some extra benefit at every level- he doesn't have anything to really build synergy with. In fact he has a sort of anti-synergy (in that the more hitpoints you have, the less extra hitpoints you need, and the less important a below-0-hp power becomes). (Yes, I'm aware that all three of those feats are sub-op, but they're feats that I feel like this sort of character should have and I was tired of seeing players blow perfectly good feat slots on them for flavor reasons. But I do think that "Tough as Nails" (i.e. toughness + extended disabled range) is worth a feat, as is Strong as an Ox (Endurance + con-to-str)) At fourth level, I think that you might be under-rating Stubborn as Hell a bit. The important thing to remember is that Iron Heroes character aren't always fighting creatures with IH classes- there are still just as many mind flayers, harpies, ogre mages and fey as there have ever been, and the occassional Dread Sorcerer where you might have seen an evil wizard before (or perhaps even an evil wizard where you might have seen an evil wizard before). Yes, it might have been better in 3.5, but I still call it a solid feat there (before factoring in that it comes packaged with Diehard). Would you disagree there? The second iteration of Guts is just as good as the first (I don't think this class feature faces any issues with poor synergy or overlap, unlike the hitpoint/toughess-based ones; I think it would be just as good for almost any character, and bonuses to attack rolls hold their value even as level increases). The end result is that the stalwart gets five feats worth of power (in terms of raw numbers that is) in his first five character levels, in addition to having more hitpoints and far more reserve points than anyone else. And that this pile of class features is NOT overpowered because, as we've established, there is so much negative synergy, and in most fights it is tactically impossible to benefit from ALL of his hit-point bulk. ("Stubborn as hell" and "Guts +1/+2" suffer from no negative synergy, I feel (like I've explained), but they also don't have the strong positive-synergy of an executioner's mounting SA or virtually anyone's bonus feats). I think you can see my tactic here- I gave powers that I KNEW were not tactically optimal, and I attempted to compensate by giving so MUCH of that power that it would break even. And, while I haven't playtested this yet, I think the results would be exactly what I want- a PC who is just itching to get in there and take hits, because he knows he's getting the most out of his character when he is being punished. The question is, did I hit the right balance? The core armiger certianly doesn't (he gets tokens rarely, and asside for his hitpoints, tokens are all he really has. Even if his abilities were activated by his own attacks rather than those of his enemies- skipping all these strategic disadvantages- he would be underpowered as written). Short of extensive playtesting this is just a judgement call, but so far I think that I have, for a few reasons. 1.) This character isn't COMPLETELY defensive. As we all know, a completely invincible but completely impotent character wouldn't carry his weight in a standard party. But a Stalwart can still take a 17 or 18 strength score and Mighty Build, can still take Cleave or Power Attack at first level, still gets iterative attacks, etc. 2.) I do think you're underestimating the strategic value of having an 'anvil' on the party. By keeping the most offensively deadly foes busy, the allow the party to take care of other enemies first, buying valuable time. A stalwart can foil a pincer-movement by rushing into one group while his party fights the other group (and any enemies who try to simply run past him suffer attacks of opportunity, and that's after they waste a round or two trying to punch through his armor); if he can hold a door or some other natural chokepoint, this tactic is considerably more effective. A harrier can dart out from behind a stalwart and then get back behind him to avoid a counter-attack; an archer or magic user can simply stay behind him. The stalwart should be the first man into a potentially-trap-ridden dungeon, and should cover the rear on any retreat. 3.) The above takes for granted everything that you've said about enemies ignoring the stalwart, which I don't completely buy, at least not to the extent that you do. Enemies don't know that he's a stalwart. They don't even know that he's the toughest or most defense-oriented member of the party. He MIGHT be wearing fullplate, but if you're a dragon, 1d8 DR shouldn't deter you. A clever enemy might a.) Give up on hurting the stalwart after a few rounds, or b.) decide to take out the exectioner first after he deals 10d6 points of damage to them. Even then, then they've been held up for a round or two. A less intelligent enemy, or a component of a less-organized group, won't switch targets. A highly unintelligent foe isn't even CAPABLE of that kind of judgement, even in the best of circumstances, and that includes a very large subset of classic foes. 4.) This might not be a fair point (since it relies on you using two of my variants in conjunction), but under my mastery houserule, all the feats in the "Guardian, Hold your Ground, Defensive Stance" thread are Defense (which is what I renamed "Armor"), meaning the Stalwart gains excellent access to them, and some of those feats have solid synergy for a character who can take hits. Since I consider Stubborn as Hell and Guts to both be solid powers, and since the first stalwart ability is going to be the most powerful (players always take their favorite power first), I made 6th a dead level, and then after- having established himself as tougher-than-thou in his first five levels- the stalwart settles into a MaA-esque rhythm of 1 feat-type benefit every other level. Three of them are bonus feats, which can be just about anything, and four of them are Stalwart Abilities, which are actually better than feats (I think) but are mostly defensive focused. I think that the stalwart becomes a lot more flexible after this point, and a lot more capable of building synergy using elective abilities (even though there aren't as many powers for stalwart abilities as there are feats). He becomes more like a somewhat defensive-focused MaA with a seven-level lag; but with extra reserve points, +2 hp/level, and innate DR to make up for it. This is because, while I wanted the "make him tougher and tougher!" approach to define him at low levels (and to also define the few-level dip), I knew it wouldn't hold up at high levels, after other characters started really building combos with their feats and class features. I'm a little more open to the idea that he might not be powerful enough at these later levels. I'll admit that when I first wrote the class I was worried about him being over-powered here, because (point-for-point) his progression is so clearly superior to a MaA's at the same level. I originally wanted to have more pro-active/quasi-offensive powers under "stalwart abilities" but I was afraid to make him any more effective. I've been typing this for a while now and I don't want to think about how long it has gotten. I think I'll hit post then go put a frozen pizza in. Thanks again for the feedback. n_n ~Hydro The Pathfinder RPG As if you haven't heard of it.
MadmanAtW		#17	[-]
Posts: 101 (06/24/09 15:22:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ok, I guess the disclaimers aren't necessary. You get burned once and you get paranoid. But so let's just go straight to tearing your arguments apart. ...except I can't. I think at this point we both have our hypotheses about how it'll work out and they're both resting on good structures, so I'd really want to just go and play one of these guys to see. But I can respond to a few things. I agree with you about the MaA not really doing a good job as a 'beginner' class. Not only because it's so possible to become a lot stronger or weaker based on synergies in feat choices, but as soon as you hit L5 you need to really know the feats inside and out to know what you have available as wildcards. (I ended up making a handout for my party's MaA with a list of all the feats she thought might be useful that she had available. :P ) Before I delve into details I'm going to put this observation at the beginning: one problem is that IMO the main benefit the Stalwart gets is incredibly difficult to quantize. He can better afford to take risks. You don't have an ability that lets you hit somebody harder- what you have is the ability to say "someone needs to provide a flanking bonus, but he'll trigger 3 AoOs!" and realize that you can get in there and take the risk. Other PCs will probably benefit sometimes from skipping their first actions (using them to generate tokens for classes with that option, perhaps) to give you a round to get in the middle of things. The Armiger as I have him written (new version will be posted tonight, I think) is a defender who does best standing next to the people he wants to defend- this guy does good by wading into the middle of the enemy and keeping them off that way. What is extra RP worth? More so than the case of a simple +1 to hit or damage, it depends on what things you decide to do that you wouldn't have risked otherwise. Now, details. You're right that Long Haul is the gift that keeps on giving, and it's only a 1st level ability because D&D doesn't really support abilities that just apply to the class period. I think my list was meant more for the emphasis of active vs passive. Now, Guts. Guts gives a +1 bonus to attack rolls and (all) saving throws when your are at half hitpoints or less. +1 attack rolls is worth a feat, and +1 to all saving throws is worth a feat as well, so if that were on all the time it would be 2 feats worth of power. Will the stalwart be at half HP or less half the time, for me to count this as one feat worth of power? Perhaps he will, perhaps he won't, but if he isn't then he isn't being threatened and doesn't really need the bonus anyway. I disagree somewhat here- you always want +1 to hit! And less so but still so the +1 to saving throws. Threatened or not, in trouble or not, these are bonuses I want from the get-go. And (unless you have deliberately chosen not to refill your hit points) when a battle begins you are guaranteed not to be getting the bonus. So combined I think these are at best one feat and maybe more like 3/4 of a feat. Call it 1 feat on the assumption that I underestimate its utility. Reading further for response fodder- yeah, I agree that a power that kicks in when you need it is worth almost as much as one you have all the time. But where you could say that Guts kicks in when you really need it (you're getting beat up), I kinda think Guts might be what turns the tide such that you weren't getting beat up in the first place, if you had it through the whole fight. So I agree with you in general about when you need it, but still think Guts doesn't really fall all that well into the category. I agree with the level dip- though with the weird situation where it's best as a first character level dip if you're playing that the first char level automatically gets max hit points, as that will be disproportionately nice with the bonus reserve points. But that's not so nice that I think it's a cheesy one level dip like the RAW Thief is. 1.) This character isn't COMPLETELY defensive. As we all know, a completely invincible but completely impotent character wouldn't carry his weight in a standard party. But a Stalwart can still take a 17 or 18 strength score and Mighty Build, can still take Cleave or Power Attack at first level, still gets iterative attacks, etc. Yes, but... so can every single other class. So I don't really see that as a value of the Stalwart. It's more back to what I said earlier, in that the difference is in the less quantifiable aspect of what you can get away with doing with those feats and attacks. 2.) I do think you're underestimating the strategic value of having an 'anvil' on the party. By keeping the most offensively deadly foes busy, The thing is he doesn't have a way to necessarily do that. He's better at surviving offensively deadly foes but no better than anyone else at locking them down and away from the other party members. If they want to ignore him and walk over to the executioner, he's no better at preventing it than any other class that chose the same feats is. the allow the party to take care of other enemies first, buying valuable time. A stalwart can foil a pincer-movement by rushing into one group while his party fights the other group (and any enemies who try to simply run past him suffer attacks of opportunity, and that's after they waste a round or two trying to punch through his armor); if he can hold a door or some other natural chokepoint, this tactic is considerably more effective. A harrier can dart out from behind a stalwart and then get back behind him to avoid a counter-attack; an archer or magic user can simply stay behind him. The stalwart should be the first man into a potentially-trap-ridden dungeon, and should cover the rear on any retreat. All of this is absolutely true, and in these situations he's making good use of his unkillability and good use of his other skills by taking the risks that are too dangerous for anyone else. 3.) The above takes for granted everything that you've said about enemies ignoring the stalwart, which I don't completely buy, at least not to the extent that you do. Enemies don't know that he's a stalwart. They don't even know that he's the toughest or most defense-oriented member of the party. He MIGHT be wearing fullplate, but if you're a dragon, 1d8 DR shouldn't deter you. A clever enemy might a.) Give up on hurting the stalwart after a few rounds, or b.) decide to take out the exectioner first after he deals 10d6 points of damage to them. Even then, then they've been held up for a round or two. A less intelligent enemy, or a component of a less-organized group, won't switch targets. A highly unintelligent foe isn't even CAPABLE of that kind of judgement, even in the best of circumstances, and that includes a very large subset of classic foes. That's true, and I should have taken it into account when I made my comment immediately above this. My monsters tend to go for whoever made them say "wow, that hurt!" which means sometimes they spend a long time working on someone who happened to roll a crit. But the reverse is also true, that not everyone is going to just beat on whoever is closest or whoever they get a shot at first, and an enemy tactician will eventually figure out that he's not as much of a threat as other people are. (A Stalwart with Savage Appearance would be fun, of course.) So... yeah, we just put different weights on this. 4.) This might not be a fair point (since it relies on you using two of my variants in conjunction), but under my mastery houserule, all the feats in the "Guardian, Hold your Ground, Defensive Stance" thread are Defense (which is what I renamed "Armor"), meaning the Stalwart gains excellent access to them, and some of those feats have solid synergy for a character who can take hits. Eh, that's fair. I would expect someone who is making up stuff to be making it primarily for their own game and just saying "Hey, if you can make use of this, go for it!" when putting it up here. Speaking of which, since I was retooling my armiger anyway, I went and yoinked a couple of abilities from the stalwart that I liked. I hope you don't mind. I'll credit you when I post it later. One thing about the stalwart vs the other classes- most of the other classes contain within them the strategies and tactics required to play them well. The Stalwart enables a playstyle without explicitly pointing out in its abilities what that style entails. I'm not really sure that makes sense to anyone else, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention. I do not put it out as a demerit on the stalwart (or, for that matter, other classes), but just something I found interesting.
MadmanAtW		#18	[-]
Posts: 102 (06/24/09 21:45:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It being one of the abilities I want to steal parts of, I've noticed that the wording on Human Fortress doesn't entirely make sense (looks like either there's a clause missing or you changed your mind part way through?): "if you are both subjected to an area effect with a reflex save for half damage, you may fail your save voluntarily to cover for them: if either of your save results are high enough they take half, and if both saves succeed they take no damage rather than half (as if they had the evasion class feature or stood behind improved cover). " Are you failing your save automatically, or both rolling? The rewording I'm thinking of using is: "...you may fail your save voluntarily to cover for them, in which case you take full damage and they take none. Alternately, you can both make your reflex saves: if either of your saves succeed, you both take half damage; if both succeed, you take half damage and they take none."
Hydromaster113		#19	[-]
Posts: 4035 (06/25/09 02:43:51) Some guy posting for a long time Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Before I delve into details I'm going to put this observation at the beginning: one problem is that IMO the main benefit the Stalwart gets is incredibly difficult to quantize. He can better afford to take risks. You don't have an ability that lets you hit somebody harder- what you have is the ability to say "someone needs to provide a flanking bonus, but he'll trigger 3 AoOs!" and realize that you can get in there and take the risk. Other PCs will probably benefit sometimes from skipping their first actions (using them to generate tokens for classes with that option, perhaps) to give you a round to get in the middle of things. The Armiger as I have him written (new version will be posted tonight, I think) is a defender who does best standing next to the people he wants to defend- this guy does good by wading into the middle of the enemy and keeping them off that way. What is extra RP worth? More so than the case of a simple +1 to hit or damage, it depends on what things you decide to do that you wouldn't have risked otherwise. Yea, you're right; this is a hard advantage to quantify (when compared to more of a hard numerical advantage like +1 to hit or damage). Technically, all these hitpoints and reserve points ARE a hard numerical advantage and what we have here is the spillover (the strategic advantages of being tougher than you know what to do with), but it's still hard to judge because theres no perfectly linear way of capitalizing on it. It's more dependant on circumsance and opportunity. I disagree somewhat here- you always want +1 to hit! And less so but still so the +1 to saving throws. Threatened or not, in trouble or not, these are bonuses I want from the get-go. And (unless you have deliberately chosen not to refill your hit points) when a battle begins you are guaranteed not to be getting the bonus. So combined I think these are at best one feat and maybe more like 3/4 of a feat. Well yes, but having them in the battle with the Demon King is a lot better than having them against the mooks in the courtyard, was my point. Which is handy because the mooks probably aren't going to shave off half your hitpoints, while the Demon King almost certianly is. (Just the same, as I think about it more you might be right; even in the fight with the Demon King, the most you are going to get to use it is one round out of two (and that's assuming, with a roughly even damage distribution, that you end the battle with 0 hp).) though with the weird situation where it's best as a first character level dip if you're playing that the first char level automatically gets max hit points, as that will be disproportionately nice with the bonus reserve points. But that's not so nice that I think it's a cheesy one level dip like the RAW Thief is. Gah! I wasn't aware of that. On average, the difference will ammount to less than a single reserve point (4hp x 1.5 + 2.5hp x 1, vs 4hp x 1 + 2.5hp x 1.5. That's 8.5 RP vs. 7.75 RP, and they both have the same HP and the same class/CON-derived RP). Not much, to be sure, but a slight annoyance. I'm sold on how Pathfinder does skills, by the way (they grant the same number of ranks at 1st level as at any other, with max ranks equal to your level, and 1 skillpoint per rank even for cross-class skills. Then they grant a +3 bonus to any class skill that you have ranks in). Yes, but... so can every single other class. So I don't really see that as a value of the Stalwart. Oh, of course, of course! My point was only that class is only one component of a character and can't be look at in a vacume. A class with no offensive ability doesn't translate to a character with no offensive ability; simply a character with less offensive ability. (Sidenote- while what I just said is always true to an extent, it is more true for low-level characters, and less true for higher-level ones. Which has a lot to do with why I change tactics and start giving bonus feats after level 5) The thing is he doesn't have a way to necessarily do that. He's better at surviving offensively deadly foes but no better than anyone else at locking them down and away from the other party members. If they want to ignore him and walk over to the executioner, he's no better at preventing it than any other class that chose the same feats is. Well, if the stalwart engages Ogre A, while the other three party members dice up Ogre B ten or twenty feet away, I consider that 'holding him down' (and think that that's very easy to do). I would never have Ogre A ignore the stalwart and walk over to the rest of the party in that situation; it just doesn't make sense. Maybe if they were both ninjas (well, murderous assassins) and wanted the flank on someone, but not if they were ogres. And the stalwart IS better at that than anyone else because he can solo an ogre for a few rounds without being in real danger. Now, if the executioner and the stalwart are both on the front line side-by-side, and the executioner is dealing more damage, I think that's different. I'm with you that far at least. But even then, if the ogre starts attacking the executioner, the executioner can tumble away and go back to Ogre B. At this point, whether Ogre A follows or whether he goes back to hitting the stalwart will vary widely from one foe to another (in my game), but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. Some enemies are brave, some are cowardly, some are smart, some are dumb, some are more offensive or defensive and some are just more stubborn than others. SOME of my enemies would give chase (and provoke an AoO) like yours, but certianly not all of them. This is a sideways comparison, because Fire Emblem isn't D&D, but I play a lot of Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem has a class called the knight, who is incredibly slow but virtually impossible to hurt unless they come against a mage or the occassional axeman. And damn are those guys useful. They block entrances, they hold chokepoints, they form walls while archers shoot over them. They hold out while injured allies run away to either side (and fresh ones filter in), and they clank out ahead to absorb the first wave of any charge. They open jars, hold elevators, and help little old ladies cross the street. A knight is never going to win the day alone, but they're awfuly nice to have around. And there are a number of reasons you can't quite have something like that in D&D (part of that being that Fire Emblem parties are huge and tactics happen on a different level; part being that Fire Emblem is a lit more lethal and "absorbing the first wave of a charge" is a really big deal), but I still think the 'toughguy' can be a boon to the party at large. I don't think I'm going to add any hard power to the stalwart class as of yet, but one thing you have convinced me is that it's okay to include some more pro-active options for stalwart abilities (this was something I actually wanted to do but was worried about making him too powerful). It would be better if he were harder to simply run past, among other things. Speaking of which, since I was retooling my armiger anyway, I went and yoinked a couple of abilities from the stalwart that I liked. I hope you don't mind. I'll credit you when I post it later. Oh, please do! Are you failing your save automatically, or both rolling? Both. He fails automatically (i.e. he takes full damage no matter what), but he still rolls a save to see how well his charge does (remember that the target of the ability may take full, half, or no damage depending on how many successes they roll between the two of them). The stalwart is still reacting to the fireball/lightning bolt/dragonbreath/etc, but he's diving in the way rather than diving for cover. Can you think of a better way to word that? ~Hydro The Pathfinder RPG As if you haven't heard of it.
MadmanAtW		#20	[-]
Posts: 104 (06/25/09 09:30:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think your Human Fortress wording is one of those rare occasions where using "they" as gender neutral singular is incredibly confusing. "you may fail your save voluntarily to cover for them: if either of your save results are high enough they take half" sounds like they (meaning both the stalwart and the protected) take half. Maybe: "...you may fail your save voluntarily to cover for them. If you do, you take full damage, and then you and your ally both roll reflex saves vs the target DC to determine how well your ally is protected. If either of your save results are a success, your ally takes half damage; if both are successful, they take none." Now I need to decide if I want to reword my stolen version of this ability to match.