Force weapon pricing

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Finniss	Force weapon pricing	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1376 (06/08/09 14:23:31) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I'd like a sword made out of force energy. What modifier would you say that is worth? I would think having a weapon made of force energy would mean it would deal force damage instead of normal damage. This should allow it to act on incorporeal and ethereal creatures and bypass damage reduction. I cannot think of any other side effects. Can you?
Ampherion		#1	[-]
Posts: 1925 (06/08/09 17:13:56) Shadowy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Does it have a number of uses or hours of use per day? Do you have to activate it to attack with it? Does it need certain amounts of daylight to recharge? If not, its quite expensive if you ask me Because I have seen no object that has these properties, I would maybe add Brilliant Energy with Ghost touch...makes it base price 72,300 or so gp It has effects you don't seem to care about like "ignores non-living matter", but what can ya do. I didn't see any option to convert all damage to force/energy damage that makes sense. You need ghost touch, otherwise it cant act on incorporeal (undead). Ethereal I think would still count... Someone better than me will have a better suggestion. 1A1S-060412-060806-N-W-523/1000-MX
Finniss		#2	[-]
Posts: 1377 (06/08/09 20:09:49) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well I was just looking for the force effect. I thought that force spells effect incorporeal creatures fully, no?
Finniss		#3	[-]
Posts: 1378 (06/08/09 20:13:56) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I guess to be clear, I just wanted a blade made out of force, 24-7. The list below was what I'm thinking the benefits of force are, and those benefits are secondary. Am I wrong that it can hit incorporeal creatures? I may be. I was making the list so that you guys could point out if I'm missing something or wrong about something. I was thinking it may have more benefits than it first appears.
Cthon		#4	[-]
Posts: 7039 (06/09/09 03:19:15) No need for labels, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The benefits of "made out of force": * strike incorporeal and ethereal opponents * not a material, so can't be broken/sundered * little or no weight * counts as force effect for unique situations that call for force effects The drawbacks of "made out of force": * entirely supernatural effect, suppressed in antimagic zone (unlike, say, an adamantine sword) * can't be a special material (like silver or cold iron) * counts as force effect for unique situations that call for force effects The benefits are nice, but not much nicer than ghost touch. Ethereal opponents are less common than incorporeal ones, and that is the only significant benefit. I would price "force weapon" as a +2 ability. In addition to comparing this ghost touch, compare it to brilliant energy (far more applicable) and adamantine weapons. _______________________ bored with changing signatures
davetkwhite		#5	[-]
Posts: 73 (06/09/09 06:23:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I don't know if the "special material" really counts as a limitation - if it's a force effect doing force damage it's already bypassing most forms of damage reduction (and most forms of energy resistance too). That's a pretty big bonus right there.
Dan C Davis		#6	[-]
Posts: 349 (06/09/09 07:59:46) Minimum 1 pt, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Here's all the weapons I could find with the word "force" in them: * Rod of Force: This rod is made of black iron, 18 inches long and a half-inch wide. The rod has three functions, any of which can be used, in any combination, five times per day: Blast of Force: A blast of force projects from the rod with a range of 100 feet. This blast strikes as a ranged touch attack. It inflicts 10d6 points of force damage. Wall of Force: As the spell. Blade of Force: A 3-foot-long glowing blade of force springs forth from the rod that lasts for 10 rounds. This can be used as a +1 brilliant energy longsword. Caster Level: 13th; Prerequisites: Craft Rod, magic missile, wall of force, Mordenkainen's sword; Market Price: 125,000 gp; Weight: 3 lb. * Oil of Force Bursts: The oil of force bursts is used to coat a single melee weapon or up to 10 small projectiles (shuriken, arrows, bolts, and so on). When the weapon strikes an object, the oil deals an additional +1d6 points of force damage. The oil's potency wears off after 1 minute. Because the coated weapon must hit a creature to cause the oil to activate, an incorporeal creature that was missed because of its incorporeal miss chance does not suffer force damage from the oil. (In other words, the weapon has to successfully hit an incorporeal creature in order to trigger the oil's effects.) Coating a weapon or 10 small projectiles is a standard action. Caster Level: 10th; Prerequisites: Brew Potion, spiritual weapon; Market Price: 1,000 gp. * Force Weapon Property: On a successful hit, a force weapon emits a powerful jolt of magical force. The magical force does not harm the weapon's wielder. Force weapons deal +1d6 points of force damage on a successful hit. If the weapon successfully hits a target protected by a force effect, such as a shield spell or bracers of armor, it might dispel the force effect in addition to damaging the target. Make a dispel check (1d20+10) against the effect (DC 11 + caster level). If the check succeeds, the force effect is dispelled (if a spell) or suppressed for 1d4 rounds (if a magic item). Ranged weapons bestow this property on their ammunition. Incorporeal creatures get no miss chance against force weapons. This property first appeared in the Arms and Equipment Guide and has been updated. Moderate evocation; CL 11th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, wall of force; Price +3 bonus. * Bolts of Impact: These unusual crossbow bolts contain a small vial of magically explosive liquid. The bolts are constructed so the vial is crushed and the liquid explodes when the bolt hits. Each bolt has a +3 attack bonus and explodes for an additional 3d4+3 points of force damage to the target. All those caught within a 5-foot burst radius must make a Reflex save (DC 14) or take half the force damage. Moderate evocation; CL 9th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, forcewave (see Magic of Faerûn) or spiritual weapon; Price 72,350 gp for 50 bolts. * Energy Bow Price: 22,600 gp Body Slot: - (held) Caster Level: 6th Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) evocation Activation: See below Weight: 3 lb. Simply drawing your fingers in the air near this finely crafted bow causes it to be strung with an arrow of glimmering energy. The energy bow acts as a +2 composite longbow that accommodates a user of any Strength. Although unstrung, it fires arrows of pure magical force that deal 2d6 points of damage. As they are force effects, the arrows do not suffer a miss chance when used against incorporeal creatures. The bow can be used to fire normal or magic arrows, but in such cases the bow does not confer its damage due to force. When drawn, the energy bow sheds light like a torch. In addition, the bow can make power shots. To do so, before making attack rolls, choose a number to subtract from your attack rolls up to your base attack and add this same number to the damage dealt by the bow with any attack that hits. The penalty on attack rolls and bonus on damage rolls last until next turn. Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic missile. Cost to Create: 11,500 gp, 888 XP, 23 days. * Bow of Force: This +2 mighty (+3) composite longbow imbues each arrow shot from it with magical force. Arrows shot from the bow of force become force attacks that have no miss chance against incorporeal targets and bypass damage reduction, but they don't damage creatures immune to force effects. Caster Level: 9th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic missile; Market Price: 32,700 gp; Cost to Create: 16,700 gp + 1,280 XP. Make the world a better place; slap someone who needs it.
Tiburon Silverflame		#7	[-]
Posts: 8174 (06/09/09 09:54:14) Enigma Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think the bow of force comes the closest, while remaining relatively simple. (The energy bow has some extra weird foo.) It's priced as a +4 MPB; it has a +2 enhancement bonus, so the conversion to a force effect counts as a +2. And that feels about right to me anyway...and note the comparison to the Force Weapon property, which is a +3.
Cthon		#8	[-]
Posts: 7043 (06/09/09 13:50:27) No need for labels, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In my description of the "force effect", it does not bypass any damage reduction. It inflicts weapon damage, not spell damage. _______________________ bored with changing signatures
davetkwhite		#9	[-]
Posts: 74 (06/09/09 15:33:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Which is fine, but the OP specifically wanted a weapon that inflicted force damage and not weapon damage.
DerekDyer		#10	[-]
Posts: 7248 (06/09/09 16:03:37) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	IMO a stable/permanent sheet of force would cause weapon damage, not force damage. Force damage, like in spells, is different.
Finniss		#11	[-]
Posts: 1380 (06/09/09 18:21:15) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	IMO a stable/permanent sheet of force would cause weapon damage, not force damage. Force damage, like in spells, is different. Hmm. How would magic missile deal different damage than an arrow made of pure force? I understand your reasoning that it shouldn't be a different form of damage, since it shouldn't damage any differently than a physical object, but then how do you explain spells that create objects made of force dealing "force" damage?
Cthon		#12	[-]
Posts: 7045 (06/09/09 19:00:18) No need for labels, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think trying to reason things out like that, Finniss, is a fool's errand. Third edition specifically treats spell damage differently from other sorts of damage with damage reduction, but never makes it clear why. So, even though ice storm delivers some "bludgeoning" damage, DR doesn't apply. If you want the weapon to bypass DR, then the price would easily jump to +4 or +5. My suggestion (treating it as regular weapon damage) would keep the price at a lower level. _______________________ bored with changing signatures
DerekDyer		#13	[-]
Posts: 7251 (06/09/09 21:07:32) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	First, because it's magic, which would be a cop-out if I stopped at that. Similar to how magical fire hurts alot worse than standing near a burning building, force in a agitated/moving state should do more than in a permanent object-like state. Maybe that's stretching a bit, but it's part of how I'd rationalize it. We're dealing with not only flavor and mechanics but also the physics of a magical world, and trying to rationalize an extra component (magic) into the equation. Part (maybe most for higher level/damage spells) of the damage from a Force spell is the magical force driving the effect. Some force effects might not even include something object-like in it, but that's purely flavor. Magic Missiles are like a bolt delivered from a crossbow with X power, and a stronger spell could be just the same but have more force as if from a stronger crossbow. It could even be a much stronger spell as if fired from a ballista. ---- I love the idea of a force sword. One of my favorite characters in 2e was a psion Telekinetic that could project a force sword, and my (semi)current HERO character (when or if we ever play again) is a powerarmor wearing superhero-type and the armor can project force. That force grants a variety of powers like basic TK and making a forcefield, stealth cloaking, walls, a sword, megaman-like arm cannon, or even to fly.
DerekDyer		#14	[-]
Posts: 7252 (06/09/09 21:15:24) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Having it do weapon damage is certainly cheaper and easier. Even better than being a smaller +'ed ability, it could probably be priced as a material, and a flat price like that will make the weapon much cheaper to enhance. Adamantine ignores hardness... how does this compare? Glassteel? Another question, Is it physical such that it is kept in a scabbard, or projected when desired from a handle? Modifying gloves of storing into a slotless tatoo, you could add 1.5x(GoS) to it's "material" base price and then you create the blade at-will (IMC).
Tiburon Silverflame		#15	[-]
Posts: 8175 (06/10/09 08:17:45) Enigma Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Having it bypass DR shouldn't force a price increase all the way to a +4; that's much too high, IMO, unless you also give it significant extra damage. Look at the Force Weapon property Dan noted.
Confused Jackal Mage		#16	[-]
Posts: 6731 (06/10/09 10:09:00) Iron Liege Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Plus, the properties that bypass material-based DR are only worth +1. I agree with several of the others that this is best represented as a normal weapon with a special material. That invokes the smallest number of additional rules, and makes it simpler and cheaper to price. So, what can a force material do? Well, it's likely got some pretty nice hardness. May even be immune entirely to energy damage, requiring a similar force to break it. I also think it's rather iconic that it can be projected from the hilt or whatever, in which case I really like DD's idea of treating it as a GoS. I don't agree with just putting in the x1.5 cost, though, as the big benefit of GoS is the utility. You can hide anything in those gloves. The sword's ability, though, sits somewhere between "entirely aesthetic" and "bonus to SoH checks to hide the sword". Allowing it to affect incorporeals makes a lot of sense. The ghost-touch granting augment crystal is 5k. Make it 'slotless' (not in general a valid thing to do, but in specialized circumstances works all right) for 7.5k. So, I'm gonna go with the material generally being worth 9k, or 15k if you can project it. That feels about right. 30hp, 15 Hardness, completely ignores energy damage. Alternately, if you wanted to price it as a weapon with a built-in augment crystal (so that it can't accept new augments), then 6k for the standard, and 12k for the projected. Imagine the culture we would live in now if, instead of a dead corpse on an instrument of torture, our signifier was a child staring in wonder at the stars.
Dan C Davis		#17	[-]
Posts: 350 (06/10/09 12:24:53) Minimum 1 pt, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	At this point I'm wondering exactly why you want a force weapon. If you're looking for a force weapon because it would look cool to have a weapon appear out of nowhere, then check the soulknife psionic class; they make their weapons from their minds. If you're looking for a weapon so that you can hit incorporeal opponents, you could add the ghost touch property to the weapon or get a lesser truedeath augment crystal from Magic Item Compendium. If you want an actual weapon made of force, the bow of force works for ranged attacks. For a melee weapon, subtract the cost of a +3 mighty masterwork composite longbow (700 gp) & a +2 weapon (8,000 gp) for a base cost of 24,000 gp. Then there are a few ways of looking at it; it's 24,000 gp for the force special material, it's a 24,000 gp addition to a weapon, or it's a +4 weapon property (24,000 gp is between +3 @ 18,000 gp and +4 at 32,000 gp). Your DM can decide for himself. But make sure you have a backup weapon. There are creatures that are immune to force effects, and a weapon like this cries out for your DM to find them . . . Make the world a better place; slap someone who needs it. Last Edited By: Dan C Davis 06/10/09 12:40:34. Edited 1 times.
DerekDyer	mmmm immune to adamantite	#18	[-]
Posts: 7254 (06/10/09 13:12:19) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Well, it's likely got some pretty nice hardness. May even be immune entirely to energy damage, requiring a similar force to break it." "completely ignores energy damage." I like immune to energy damage, what if: immune to energy damage, unless it does enough damage to destroy it outright? (and worded gooder) I'd like to give it an "immune to adamantite" kicker for my own world building purposes. Kick in a grand or two for that, or is it cosmetic enough to affect things? Is the force projected from a hilt, or is the entire object force? Would it be invisible if you set it on the floor? "But if you do, make sure you have a backup weapon. There are creatures that are immune to force effects, and a weapon like this cries out for your DM to find them . . ." I don't agree a force immune monster would instantly be immune to such a weapon, but it's something I'd do on a case by case basis. It would also depend on how much this modification would tax a parties resources. If you're taking the damage of their primary damage dealer, it could be bad; but if it's someone only occasionally in melee, not a big deal just a surprise.
Tiburon Silverflame		#19	[-]
Posts: 8177 (06/10/09 14:14:42) Enigma Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you want an actual weapon made of force, the bow of force works for ranged attacks. For a melee weapon, subtract the cost of a +3 mighty masterwork composite longbow (700 gp) & a +2 weapon (8,000 gp) for a base cost of 24,000 gp. Then there are a few ways of looking at it; it's 24,000 gp for the force special material, it's a 24,000 gp addition to a weapon, or it's a +4 weapon property (24,000 gp is between +3 @ 18,000 gp and +4 at 32,000 gp). Your DM can decide for himself. Weapon special qualities with MPBs are never separated. If it's a weapon property, it's a +2, which, with the +2 enhancement, gives a +4 price. Also, IMO, it's an MPB, not a fixed-cost increase such as with materials. Figure: if it cost, let's say, 10,000...would you ever get a +5 weapon that didn't have it? The cost increase is negligible, while the advantages are major. And if this isn't an MPB, then, because it's universally better than Ghost Touch, Ghost Touch would have to be a fixed-cost improvement.
DerekDyer		#20	[-]
Posts: 7255 (06/10/09 16:44:34) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I consider the augment crystals, espescially "ghost touch" to be a fix to weapon and armor abilities that are suboptimal or their usefulness is variable. Doing it in a balanced way which makes you make choices. Speaking of choices, I currently have no reason in 3.5 RAW for all my +5 weapons not to be adamantite. This is a competitive choice, I'd like to see a couple more. For cosmetic effects you could even make this an ability so that you could "coat" it on other weapons, changing their material to 'Force' but being invisible the weapon doesn't change in appearance.

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