Additionally:
Would a ghost touch weapon act on ethereal creatures when wielded by a corporeal creature on the material plane?
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Finniss |
Ethereal vs. incorporeal |
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I was wondering what the difference is between incorporeal and ethereal. I know that incorporeal creatures can interact with corporeal creatures but ethereal
creatures cannot interact with corporeal creatures. How do incorporeal creatures interact with ethereal creatures though? Do incorporeal creatures act
partially on the ethereal plane or is it something completely different?
Additionally: Would a ghost touch weapon act on ethereal creatures when wielded by a corporeal creature on the material plane? |
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rweston |
Incorporeal Vs Ethereal | ||
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Hope this helps, in short hand, and Incorporeal creature has no body(he's all alone...) on any plane of existance, an ethereal creature DOES have a body,
it's just on another plane.
Incorporeal creatures cannot interact with Ethereal creatures, and ghost touch weapons cannot hurt ethereal creatures* Incorporeal: Wraith, Spectre Ethereal: Phase Spider, Ghost * A Ghost CAN interact with the material world using his "manifestation" power, and said manifestation is treated as "incorporeal" - thus a ghost touch weapon helps against a manifesting host, but if the ghost stops manifesting the "ghost touch" won't allow you to hit the ghost even if you're using some sort of magic that will let you see the ghost on the ethereal plane. INCORPOREAL An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn't wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. ETHEREAL Phase spiders and certain other creatures can exist on the Ethereal Plane. While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane. Ethereal creatures are invisible, inaudible, insubstantial, and scentless to creatures on the Material Plane. Even most magical attacks have no effect on them. See invisibility and true seeing reveal ethereal creatures. An ethereal creature can see and hear into the Material Plane in a 60-foot radius, though material objects still block sight and sound. (An ethereal creature can't see through a material wall, for instance.) An ethereal creature inside an object on the Material Plane cannot see. Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly. An ethereal creature can't affect the Material Plane, not even magically. An ethereal creature, however, interacts with other ethereal creatures and objects the way material creatures interact with material creatures and objects. Even if a creature on the Material Plane can see an ethereal creature the ethereal creature is on another plane. Only force effects can affect the ethereal creatures. If, on the other hand, both creatures are ethereal, they can affect each other normally. A force effect originating on the Material Plane extends onto the Ethereal Plane, so that a wall of force blocks an ethereal creature, and a magic missile can strike one (provided the spellcaster can see the ethereal target). Gaze effects and abjurations also extend from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane. None of these effects extend from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane. Ethereal creatures move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground, and material objects don't block them (though they can't see while their eyes are within solid material). Ghosts have a power called manifestation that allows them to appear on the Material Plane as incorporeal creatures. Still, they are on the Ethereal Plane, and another ethereal creature can interact normally with a manifesting ghost. Ethereal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as air. Ethereal creatures do not fall or take falling damage. Rory, who recommends all 3.x DM's bookmark "http://www.d20srd.org/" |
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Finniss |
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Ok thanks. That's very detailed. It must have been the ghost that got me mixed up.
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seankreynolds |
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rweston |
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Man - I wish I'd remembered that Sean - much simpler breakdown.
I read it back when you posted it & it helped solidify (heh) the difference for me - the minute I saw your name in the thread it came flooding back. Finniss - Sean's got some great articles along this line on his website - they're a great resource. Rory |
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Confused Jackal Mage |
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Honestly, ghosts are just *screwed up*. The Ethereal Plane is not the afterlife, and there is absolutely no reason for ghosts to be ethereal. It just makes
everything crazy. I say ignore it and make 'em incorporeal all the way.
Imagine the culture we would live in now if, instead of a dead corpse on an instrument of torture, our signifier was a child staring in wonder at the
stars.
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DerekDyer |
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Maybe if you make them incorporeal *and* give them abilities to turn invisible or teleport. [Scary movie] Ghosts, while remaining incorporeal, have this
ability to disappear, and come and go at-will.
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seankreynolds |
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Confused Jackal Mage wrote: You should play Pathfinder. |
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Dan C Davis |
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seankreynolds wrote:That sounds ominous. I just hope ghostwalk ghosts and undead ghosts stay different . . .
Make the world a better place; slap someone who needs it.
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seankreynolds |
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Dan C Davis wrote: Very. |
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Dan C Davis |
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Now I'm intrigued; I love villians coming back as ghosts to haunt the PCs who murdered them in cold blood, but I've never been too happy with the
weird undead ghost rules. But judging by the cryptic responses, I'm guessing you'll get a cement pair of shoes and a trip to the river if you reveal
anything more.
Make the world a better place; slap someone who needs it.
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rweston |
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See - I've always thought that zombies, vampires, wights, ghouls etc should be "undead" while ghosts (and probably wraiths, spectres ect) should
be considered "Spirits of the dead" - with a different ruleset for each.
I mean the ghost is fully & completely dead, it's a spirit that haunts the living, unable to move on, a very different thing from the "living dead"/Undead. I have no problem with ghosts being ethereal (the spirit is "caught in the ether" and can only act in the world by "manifesting" - but then I think that wraiths, spectres shadows etc should all be the same as ghosts. You'd need another category of from them aside from "undead" and probably a different set of powers & resistances. Just a thought.... Rory |
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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A shadow has some notable conceptual differences from a ghost. The shadow has a much stronger linkage, in 3E, to the plane of Shadows. It's probably true
tho, that for the most part, there's no significant difference between 'spectre', 'ghost', and 'wraith'. In OldE, they all had to
have separate monster entries because OldE had to work that way. So, some of the powers differences may come from that.
I don't think you need to make many more types, to distinguish between the corporeal and incorporeal undead, as I think there are more similarities than differences. Proper subtyping takes care of the rest. The subtypes I'd prefer would be Incorporeal, and something giving the key distinction between a vampire and a zombie...the vampire's intelligent. A vampire should *not* be immune to mind-controlling effects, IMO. |
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rweston |
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Shadows are probably a corner case.
If I were to "re-imagine" the rules I'd probably do this: "Undead" are corporeal bodies that SHOULD be dead, but are not - they're animated despite having no "living" anatomy: from Skeletons through ghouls/wights/zombies on up to vampires "Shadows" would be extraplanar demonic type entities from the plane of shadow with an incorporeal template. "The restless dead" would be spirits (ghosts/spectres/wraiths) which would have no bodies and are just the "souls". they're not undead, their "spirit" has left their body, but it hasn't gone on to it's reward/punishment - or it HAS and was then sent back. Ghosts probably hadn't left, wraiths & spectres are either cursed, or went to Hell & were sent back/summoned up etc & remain to punish the living. They'd have a different template, and probably not be "incorporeal" but rather something like the ethereal nature of ghosts. You probably couldn't deal with them via weapons, but would have to exorcise them/turn them some such thing. The key is thsat I don't see "spectral" creatures as "undead" but rather as "dead & pissed off". Rory |
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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"Undead" are corporeal bodies that SHOULD be dead, but are not - they're animated despite having no "living" anatomy: from Skeletons through ghouls/wights/zombies on up to vampiresI draw a major distinction between skeletons and zombies, which IMO are much closer to constructs, and vampires and liches, which retain free will. There may be a few breakpoints here: --those that qualify as Mindless --vampires and liches have class levels --in between, there are those that have an Int, and to some degree free will, but either are stated to not have class levels for whatever reason, or normally don't have class levels. That is, of course, for the corporeal undead. I think the vast majority of incorporeal undead, fall into the 3rd group. Most commonly, these critters are somewhat 'programmed' much like trained animals. They do certain things, in certain areas, and have a very limited ability to assess situations and adapt. Contrast this with, say, a vampire, which does...a vampire may choose to relocate its lair, and perhaps modify its hunting tactics, but a ghoul never will. Spectres, wraiths, and ghosts also typically don't adapt; they're tied to place or task. Ghosts probably hadn't left, wraiths & spectres are either cursed, or went to Hell & were sent back/summoned up etc & remain to punish the living. They'd have a different template, and probably not be "incorporeal" but rather something like the ethereal nature of ghosts. You probably couldn't deal with them via weapons, but would have to exorcise them/turn them some such thing.Ghosts are a strange case because they're dual-natured. What they're attempting to capture with ghosts, is the aspect that they're usually tied to a location, but frequently not 'there'. The answer? They're remaining in the ethereal analog of the area, until they manifest. The common usage of wraiths and spectres is, they don't have that option open to them. As far as making all of them immune to weapons, this means half the party simply has no ability to do anything to them, and would therefore be completely useless in any encounter with them. That's not fun, for a general case. It can be interesting to do this with some *specific* critters, but I wouldn't do this generally, and I'd allow for partial success: the critter can be disrupted and seemingly killed for a while, but it would re-form until certain special conditions are met. That becomes a potentially rich adventure, to determine exactly what is necessary, and lets everyone ultimately contribute. |
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rweston |
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I agree on the case with skeletons/zombie being constructs sometimes heck I'd use the animate object entry for them under those circumstances
probably.
However, I still remember the creepy image from one of the "living dead" remakes, where a rotted zombie crawled out of a container - it's face mostly skull, but its' eyes still intact - looking around for victims... of course that could be a wight or some other intelligent undead. As far as making all of them immune to weapons, this means half the party simply has no ability to do anything to them, and would therefore be completely useless in any encounter with them. That's not fun, for a general case. It can be interesting to do this with some *specific* critters, but I wouldn't do this generally, and I'd allow for partial success: the critter can be disrupted and seemingly killed for a while, but it would re-form until certain special conditions are met. That becomes a potentially rich adventure, to determine exactly what is necessary, and lets everyone ultimately contribute. Yeah - The whole "Supernatural"(TV series), fill your shotgun with rock-salt & disrupt the ghosts for a few rounds, lay down the protective circle so they can't possess you/age you/whatever . You'd want to use these creatures as special cases, non standard stuff definitely. You could have "salt"/holy water disrupt the "spectral force" for 3d6 rounds/minutes Holy weapon as above Magic weapon say d6+1 rounds Iron weapon d4+1 rounds Regular weapon with iron in it (steel etc) d4 rounds Give the fighters/rogues something to do while the clercis/mages work their magic.... I'd be talking about a major change to a whole class of monster, though these would fall into the opposite category from golems - golems are for the fighters to bash, while the wizard runs & hides or buffs the fighters 'cause their magic don't work on the golem... Just so you know - this is just one of those idle DM thoughts that's been floating about in my head for a couple of years, not something I've actually gone so far as to work on for game use... Rory |
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Yobgod |
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This is fairly tangential, but in my mind I've always considered creatures to be formed from some combination of Body (STR/DEX/CON), Mind(INT/WIS), and
Spirit(CHA).
Normal, living, creatures have all three, with the Body and Mind powered by the Spirit and positive (life) energy. Classical D&D undead are powered by negative energy instead of positive energy. Allowing for positive energy undead potentially leads to things like Ghostwalk, Revenants, etc. The Mind contains skills and the capacity for thought, while the Spirit contains the sense of self. So, this gives us 7 possible "types" of undead: Body only: Zombies and Skeletons and other mindless corporeal undead. Spirit only: Unintelligent ghosts and haunts that can only remember but not think. Mind only: Shadows and other intelligent, incorporeal undead who do not remember their former lives. Body and Mind: Ghouls, Ghasts and all the other intelligent undead who are ruled by primal desires rather than a sense of self. Spirit and Mind: Intelligent, incorporeal undead that know who they are. Not usually terribly useful as D&D undead because they retain the essence of who they really were. Body and Spirit: Tomb Guardians and the like, who have a body and sense of past but no independent thought. All three: Liches, Vampires, and all other "normal" beings that have merely converted themselves to run on clean-burning coal/negative energy. |
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