Hi everyone,
Things have come full circle in my life and I'm interested in roleplaying again after playing only occasionally in the past few years (dam MMOs). I've been roleplaying for around 30 years now, starting with the "basic" red box of D&D back in 1978, lol.
I was given 4E as a gift last year and haven't gotten around to reading it until now. I'll give you my first impression of it (I've read most of the PBH and some of the DMs) but I'd like your input since I haven't playtested it yet.
I'd like to know what everyone thinks before investing anymore time and money into this. I'm on the fence and I have the following concerns with the game.
First impressions
#1: Spellcasters are hurting
After reading the PHB, my first impression is that casters are not as good as they were in 3E.
I'm converting my level 8 cleric into 4E and it's painful. I don't have my character in front of me but I'm going from around 23 spells per day to about 3 encounter spells per day and 3 dailies and 3 utility spells (all dailies). Best case scenario I have 9 rounds of action. Worst case scenario I have 3 rounds of action. Action is using a spell other than my at-will powers, which are not very strong.
My level 10 wizard is even worse. I had a huge arsenal before, fireballs doing 10D6 damage and now I get a 2D6 fireball with 1/3 the radius? WTF.
Spellcasters used to be glass cannons before, now they just seems like glass. They do only moderate AE damage while being a very obvious liability because of their low AC and hp.
In general I feel that spellcasters got shafted in a major way in this edition, all spells have been nerfed and most of them don't scale anymore. Considering characters are limited to only 3-5 encounter spells it makes more sense to give spells that scale instead of making a "level 5 fireball" and a"level 15 fireball", but that's not what they did.
I'm happy for non-casters though, they got a huge boost because they get to do something other than "just attack".
I'd like to hear from players that have played spellcasters in the past editions and who have played them again in 4E. Is it as bad as I think it is or is it ok?
#2: First 3 rounds = excellent, rounds 4+ = at-will powers
It seems to me that the first 3 rounds will be great and then you'll be forced to use at-will powers in any given non-boss battle.
With the limited (low) amount of damage characters do in 4E, I'm sure a lot of battles go into the 6+ round range now. The rounds may or may not go faster but when you're using at-will powers most of the entire time, I'm sure they are a snore fest. You can't even use wands to augment your abilities in case you run out.
Do people find battles less exciting than 3E, more exciting than 3E, or about the same?
Do battles go on forever without multiple attacks? Without Rapid Fire and other multiattack feats? With low damage spells?
#3 Limited options
As a spell caster, ever switch spells around "just for fun". In 4E it seems the options for selecting spells is very limited. In the PHB, instead of giving us new and unique spells for variety they seem to deliver a lot of crappy spells (1 round with +2AC is now what I call a good use of a standard action) and a lot of these crappy spells repeated at nauseum (at different levels). A lot of these spells are not exciting and it's also obvious that they aren't even useful (in any situation) compared to other spells in the same category (or even compared to using at-will spells).
I'm also VERY disappointed that more of the traditional D&D spells were not converted into some kind of nerfed 4E version. Where is Hold Person, Charm Person, Charm Monster, etc? There are a lot of iconic spells missing and I'm not really happy about it.
Also, in 3E and previous editions, our wizards and other spellcasters got the party out of various problems by memorizing/praying for the correct utility spells. Seems like it can't really be done in 4E. Want your 6 party members to fly for a few minutes? Doesn't seem possible right now.
Are gamers here who like spellcasters happy with the lack of variety in spells or does it bother you a bit?
#4 Healing Surges
How do you like them? Personally, I really like the idea. I like that it decreases the need for clerics slightly. I like that it limits the amount of healing that can be done per day as well.
However, I'll be implementing a house rule that says you need to be bloodied in order to use "second wind". And perhaps it only heals you up to a maximum of "bloodied" amount of health (unsure).
What are your experiences with the healing surge system?
#5 Skill System
I really like the new skill system. I like how it's consolidated (I did the same with house rules), I like that it's easy to pick skills and it's easy to maintain and level up your skills as well. And it's still familiar to 3E players. Huzzah for skills.
#6 Monsters
The one thing that might prevent me from converting is that I heard from a number of people (and message boards) that the monsters are now "vanilla" (compared to 3.5) and that they haven't been properly playtested either. Is this true?
In particular, there are a number of complaints about Dragons, how they are weak, much weaker than even dire bears. In 3E, Dragons were some of the most fearsome, challenging, and fun opponents to fight, has 4E ruined them that much?
I'd like your thoughts on monsters in 4E, if the monsters are really that messed up in the MM, it would stop me from converting.
#7 Characters nerfed? Low damage = fun?
It seems to me that the damage output of a 4E character compared to it's 3.5 equivalent is much much lower. That's excluding all of the buff spells, in which case the 4E character is crap against a 3.5 character. Is this true?
If it's true, have the monsters been nerfed accordingly to this lower damage output?
The reason I believe damage has gone down is that fighters and other classes no longer get multiple attacks. Sure, there are a few abilities that allow them to do twice the weapon damage (only once per encounter), but that doesn't compare to being able to swing 2-5 times per round.
Also, and I could be wrong, but classes like Wizard have been nerfed to hell. A fireball from a level 10 Wizard previously did 10D6 damage (35 damage average), if I remember correctly the new fireball does 2D6+INT damage (perhaps 11 damage average). That's what I call a nerf!
Anyway, first thing I want to know is:
a) Is the damage really that much lower?; and
b) How does doing lower damage effect your game (if at all)?
#8 Magic Items
Magic items have been massively nerfed as well. While I like that magic items were somewhat nerfed (I run low magic campaigns myself), I feel they went too far with it. Gauntlents of Ogre Power should be called Gauntlets of the Power Puff girls (only have a daily power that lasts one round only is LAME).
If you have 10 daily items you can only use a single one of them. Considering almost every item is daily now, I find this a little hard to take as well.
How do you like the new magic items in 4E? Does magic items play a less significant role in your game?
In Conclusion...
There are other things I liked and lots of other things that I didn't like, but nothing was so bad that I couldn't make a house rule for them.
My main concern at this point is that the Monster Manual is not completely screwed up.
My other concern is how hard is it for a DM to re-learn the entire system, particularily running large battles in 4E. Is it close enough that I should be ok?
Anyway, I'm interested in your 4E feedback, some of you must have been playing for months now and can give me some feedback on whether it's worth converting from 3.5 to 4.0. I don't think my players would like the hassle of converting, but if you guys say it's worth it, I'll continue to think about. Thanks ahead of time.
Things have come full circle in my life and I'm interested in roleplaying again after playing only occasionally in the past few years (dam MMOs). I've been roleplaying for around 30 years now, starting with the "basic" red box of D&D back in 1978, lol.
I was given 4E as a gift last year and haven't gotten around to reading it until now. I'll give you my first impression of it (I've read most of the PBH and some of the DMs) but I'd like your input since I haven't playtested it yet.
I'd like to know what everyone thinks before investing anymore time and money into this. I'm on the fence and I have the following concerns with the game.
First impressions
#1: Spellcasters are hurting
After reading the PHB, my first impression is that casters are not as good as they were in 3E.
I'm converting my level 8 cleric into 4E and it's painful. I don't have my character in front of me but I'm going from around 23 spells per day to about 3 encounter spells per day and 3 dailies and 3 utility spells (all dailies). Best case scenario I have 9 rounds of action. Worst case scenario I have 3 rounds of action. Action is using a spell other than my at-will powers, which are not very strong.
My level 10 wizard is even worse. I had a huge arsenal before, fireballs doing 10D6 damage and now I get a 2D6 fireball with 1/3 the radius? WTF.
Spellcasters used to be glass cannons before, now they just seems like glass. They do only moderate AE damage while being a very obvious liability because of their low AC and hp.
In general I feel that spellcasters got shafted in a major way in this edition, all spells have been nerfed and most of them don't scale anymore. Considering characters are limited to only 3-5 encounter spells it makes more sense to give spells that scale instead of making a "level 5 fireball" and a"level 15 fireball", but that's not what they did.
I'm happy for non-casters though, they got a huge boost because they get to do something other than "just attack".
I'd like to hear from players that have played spellcasters in the past editions and who have played them again in 4E. Is it as bad as I think it is or is it ok?
#2: First 3 rounds = excellent, rounds 4+ = at-will powers
It seems to me that the first 3 rounds will be great and then you'll be forced to use at-will powers in any given non-boss battle.
With the limited (low) amount of damage characters do in 4E, I'm sure a lot of battles go into the 6+ round range now. The rounds may or may not go faster but when you're using at-will powers most of the entire time, I'm sure they are a snore fest. You can't even use wands to augment your abilities in case you run out.
Do people find battles less exciting than 3E, more exciting than 3E, or about the same?
Do battles go on forever without multiple attacks? Without Rapid Fire and other multiattack feats? With low damage spells?
#3 Limited options
As a spell caster, ever switch spells around "just for fun". In 4E it seems the options for selecting spells is very limited. In the PHB, instead of giving us new and unique spells for variety they seem to deliver a lot of crappy spells (1 round with +2AC is now what I call a good use of a standard action) and a lot of these crappy spells repeated at nauseum (at different levels). A lot of these spells are not exciting and it's also obvious that they aren't even useful (in any situation) compared to other spells in the same category (or even compared to using at-will spells).
I'm also VERY disappointed that more of the traditional D&D spells were not converted into some kind of nerfed 4E version. Where is Hold Person, Charm Person, Charm Monster, etc? There are a lot of iconic spells missing and I'm not really happy about it.
Also, in 3E and previous editions, our wizards and other spellcasters got the party out of various problems by memorizing/praying for the correct utility spells. Seems like it can't really be done in 4E. Want your 6 party members to fly for a few minutes? Doesn't seem possible right now.
Are gamers here who like spellcasters happy with the lack of variety in spells or does it bother you a bit?
#4 Healing Surges
How do you like them? Personally, I really like the idea. I like that it decreases the need for clerics slightly. I like that it limits the amount of healing that can be done per day as well.
However, I'll be implementing a house rule that says you need to be bloodied in order to use "second wind". And perhaps it only heals you up to a maximum of "bloodied" amount of health (unsure).
What are your experiences with the healing surge system?
#5 Skill System
I really like the new skill system. I like how it's consolidated (I did the same with house rules), I like that it's easy to pick skills and it's easy to maintain and level up your skills as well. And it's still familiar to 3E players. Huzzah for skills.
#6 Monsters
The one thing that might prevent me from converting is that I heard from a number of people (and message boards) that the monsters are now "vanilla" (compared to 3.5) and that they haven't been properly playtested either. Is this true?
In particular, there are a number of complaints about Dragons, how they are weak, much weaker than even dire bears. In 3E, Dragons were some of the most fearsome, challenging, and fun opponents to fight, has 4E ruined them that much?
I'd like your thoughts on monsters in 4E, if the monsters are really that messed up in the MM, it would stop me from converting.
#7 Characters nerfed? Low damage = fun?
It seems to me that the damage output of a 4E character compared to it's 3.5 equivalent is much much lower. That's excluding all of the buff spells, in which case the 4E character is crap against a 3.5 character. Is this true?
If it's true, have the monsters been nerfed accordingly to this lower damage output?
The reason I believe damage has gone down is that fighters and other classes no longer get multiple attacks. Sure, there are a few abilities that allow them to do twice the weapon damage (only once per encounter), but that doesn't compare to being able to swing 2-5 times per round.
Also, and I could be wrong, but classes like Wizard have been nerfed to hell. A fireball from a level 10 Wizard previously did 10D6 damage (35 damage average), if I remember correctly the new fireball does 2D6+INT damage (perhaps 11 damage average). That's what I call a nerf!
Anyway, first thing I want to know is:
a) Is the damage really that much lower?; and
b) How does doing lower damage effect your game (if at all)?
#8 Magic Items
Magic items have been massively nerfed as well. While I like that magic items were somewhat nerfed (I run low magic campaigns myself), I feel they went too far with it. Gauntlents of Ogre Power should be called Gauntlets of the Power Puff girls (only have a daily power that lasts one round only is LAME).
If you have 10 daily items you can only use a single one of them. Considering almost every item is daily now, I find this a little hard to take as well.
How do you like the new magic items in 4E? Does magic items play a less significant role in your game?
In Conclusion...
There are other things I liked and lots of other things that I didn't like, but nothing was so bad that I couldn't make a house rule for them.
My main concern at this point is that the Monster Manual is not completely screwed up.
My other concern is how hard is it for a DM to re-learn the entire system, particularily running large battles in 4E. Is it close enough that I should be ok?
Anyway, I'm interested in your 4E feedback, some of you must have been playing for months now and can give me some feedback on whether it's worth converting from 3.5 to 4.0. I don't think my players would like the hassle of converting, but if you guys say it's worth it, I'll continue to think about. Thanks ahead of time.
