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Finniss |
SR vs lasting effects. |
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I was wondering if there is an official rule on how this works. For example, someone using ghost weapon against a creature with spell resistance. Would you
make one check and the spell either always works or always doesn't, or would you make a SR check for each attack?
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varianor |
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I would go with the SRD on this.
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Jagyr Ebonwood |
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Look to the section of the SRD above that, though:
Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not.I'd rule that SR doesn't protect against a ghost touch weapon. |
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varianor |
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However, ghost touch is not an enhancement bonus upon a weapon, it's a spell. If it says SR: No in the spell line, then I would agree. Otherwise, SR
applies.
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Invisible Hoser |
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In the DMG, Ghost Touch is a weapon enhancement. I think it's a +1 equivalent.
There is also an AE spell called Ghost Touch. My guess is that this is the source of confusion.
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varianor |
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Right. However, there's a little terminology problem. An enhancement bonus is specific. It's the +1 or +3 or +7 to hit and damage. A weapon enhancement
(here's the terminology problem) is listed under the table for weapon special abilities. I could see applying it to prevent SR from working, even though I
don't believe it does work that way in the RAW.
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Jagyr Ebonwood |
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The section on SR also notes that SR only applies to targeted spells, area spells, and effect spells, and that a spell can indirectly harm a creature without
triggering its SR.
Since the enchantment of the weapon is affecting the weapon, not the SR creature, I'd still rule that the ghost touch weapon works. Think of it this way: if the ghost touch property stated that it made the wielder's sword arm pop in and out of the ethereal plane when he attacked, would you rule the same way? Because that's pretty much how it works. Ghost touch requires the creator to cast plane shift. The plane shift effect acts on the weapon, not the creature it strikes. By the way, Varianor, there's an auto-body shop in my town called VIANOR, and every time I drive past it I think of you.
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not.Typical 3E rules text...that is, pathetic. The first sentence says everything that need be said. Just stop right there and ask "is this a spell or an SLA?" If the answer is No, then SR does not apply. Therefore, the second sentence is redundant and pointless, and the parenthetic remark just opens the door for misinterpretation. Then, to finish it, there is never a clear statement as to the nature of weapon special abilities; even the enhancement bonus is only indirectly characterized as Su, and ONLY here, to the best of my recollection. The 3.5 FAQ doesn't discuss this...at least, not when I searched for "spell resistance." As a sidebar, tho, here's a quote from the FAQ (boldface mine): Damage reduction is extraordinary unless the weapon property that bypasses the damage reduction is "magic" (as in damage reduction #/magic) or one of the four alignment qualities (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), in which case it is supernatural. Damage reduction that is bypassed by any other weapon quality that a manufactured weapon could not have without being magical also would be a supernatural special quality.This gives a pretty strong inference to me, that the permanent properties of all magical items, are supernatural, while effects that require activation are typically SLA. |
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Jagyr Ebonwood |
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Tiburon Silverflame wrote:All this says to me is that any damage reduction other than x/bludgeoning, x/slashing, x/piercing, x/silvered, or x/cold iron is considered supernatural. That is, DR 10/Evil is Supernatural, but the Evil weapon property is not Supernatural. |
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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On its face, yes, but read between the lines, especially coupled with the fact that the enhancement bonus *is* supernatural.
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Finniss |
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I have to disagree with you Jag. If you were correct it would say SR: No. Do you think that is a typo?
I actually think we're talking about different things though Jag. You're talking about a "ghost Touch" weapon. I'm talking about the 5th level AE spell, "ghost weapon". If you're talking about a "ghost touch" weapon, I agree with you, as does everyone else, I believe. I did not consider that confusion and possibly should have picked a better example than one that could be easily confused. |
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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On Ghost Weapon...
It does appear that SR should apply to something struck by a weapon with the Ghost Weapon spell. "First time encountered" means, check the first time you have a potential hit, and use that result. |
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Finniss |
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Sounds good Tiburon. SR applying wasn't this issue, I just wasn't certain if the check should be made each attack, or just the first time.
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Jagyr Ebonwood |
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Finniss wrote: *facepalm* I should've read your original post more carefully, and I should've realized what subforum we were in. Duh. Let me go look up ghost weapon... ...okay, I only have AU, not AE. In my book ghost weapon is a 4th level spell. Hopefully (for my argument) that's the only difference between the AU/AE versions of the spell. In AU, the Spell Resistance entry says "SR: Yes (harmless)" because the target entry says "Target: One weapon". So, when you cast ghost weapon on a longsword, if that longsword somehow has SR, then it can attempt to resist the spell if it wants. The creature you attack with the longsword isn't the target, so it doesn't get to apply SR. If you used appropriate size to enlarge a spryte's sword and then stabbed a vallorian with it, the vallorian wouldn't get to apply SR against the attack because he wasn't the target of appropriate size (which, like ghost weapon, has an SR entry of "SR: Yes (harmless)"). Of course, it's up to you and your group how you want to interpret the rules. In the case of SR versus lasting effects, I'd check once per casting of the spell, on the first time that the creature would be affected by the spell.
Last Edited By: Jagyr Ebonwood
05/12/09 08:55:00.
Edited 1 times.
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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With Appropriate Size, the magic does not interact with the critter hit by the weapon; it only interacts with the object that was the target.
With Ghost Touch, the magic *does* interact with the critter hit by the weapon. The weapon...which, BTW, may NOT be an item...is the vehicle for the spell. It's very similar to a touch-delivered spell effect at that point. Take Shocking Grasp, from the SRD. Its range is Touch; its target is Creature or Object Touched. But it's SR: Yes...when the Grasp is delivered onto the *real* target* (that is, the target of the melee touch attack), that target gets its SR. The chain of events here is identical. So it's a bit more subtle than you think. |
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Jagyr Ebonwood |
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Tiburon Silverflame wrote: No, I think it's a bit more subtle than you think.
Shocking grasp does not target the hand of the caster, it targets a person the caster touches. Appropriate size and ghost weapon target items which then may be used against a creature, and, contrary to your position, I'd posit that the magic of both spells interacts with the creature hit by the weapon in the same way: by affecting the weapon. Let's say that you let SR apply to an attack with a GW. If the spell is resisted, armor and natural armor applies to the attack roll as normal, and the SR critter is less likely to take damage. If you let SR apply to GW, why don't you let it apply to AS? A spryte-sized sword affected by AS cast by a large giant magister would become a large dagger, and deal 1d6 damage instead of the 1d3 or 1d4 it normally would do. So, shouldn't SR apply to this attack? If the caster level check fails, the critter takes damage as if the sword were its original size, and is likely to take less damage. The chain of events here is identical.I don't think so. Let's take a look at the chain of events (notice I'm leaving out the SR step and assuming all attack rolls are successful). Shocking grasp: Caster casts the spell. Caster touches the target critter. Target critter takes damage. Appropriate size / ghost weapon: Caster casts the spell. Caster touches target weapon. Caster (or ally) picks up target weapon, and attacks a critter. Critter takes damage. GW is a little confusing, because it does make sense that your SR would apply to a magical effect that is bypassing your natural armor. This is why I bring in AS, since it is easier to think about and has identical SR and target entries. Saying that SR applies to a critter struck by a GWed/ASed weapon is like saying SR should apply to a critter struck by a dominated ally. If the ally wasn't dominated, he wouldn't have hit me! Why can't I apply SR? If the weapon wasn't GWed, it wouldn't have hit me...I can apply SR there? Anyhow, I'm tired, and this is happening in my house right now. And I fear I may be losing my point somewhere. As I said in my previous post, you can interpret the rules however you want. If you decide to apply SR to effects like ghost weapon and appropriate size, I suggest you check only once, when the critter is first affected by the spell. From then on, that casting of the spell either works or doesn't. If the caster casts it again and uses it against the same critter, roll SR again. |
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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Shocking grasp does not target the hand of the caster, it targets a person the caster touches. Appropriate size and ghost weapon target items which then may be used against a creature, and, contrary to your position, I'd posit that the magic of both spells interacts with the creature hit by the weapon in the same way: by affecting the weapon.Shocking Grasp...yah, misread it. But, how does Appropriate Size interact with the creature struck? The properties of the weapon don't change, other than damage, and that's due to the effect on the weapon. So the damage change is one step removed from the creature struck. Bypassing the armor and natural armor could be interpreted the same way, altho I think that argument is weaker...but the spell also says you get to avoid the miss chance for attacking an incorporeal critter, and that becomes a direct interaction. Saying that SR applies to a critter struck by a GWed/ASed weapon is like saying SR should apply to a critter struck by a dominated ally. If the ally wasn't dominated, he wouldn't have hit me! Why can't I apply SR? If the weapon wasn't GWed, it wouldn't have hit me...I can apply SR there?Because of the one-step-removed aspect. The Dominate isn't hitting you; the Dominate is causing something else to hit you. SR applies when the magic affects the critter directly; it does not apply when the magic affects something else that then interacts with the critter. So the issue, for me, really becomes: does Ghost Weapon interact directly with the critter? IMO, yes. The weapon involved is the carrier; the interaction still takes place because of the nature of the effect. The one-step-removed is why most Conjurations get SR: No, while Evocations get SR: Yes. Evocations directly apply magical energy to the target; Conjurations have the energy create something that is then applied. Telekinesis is the same; you're pushing the spear that's jabbing the critter, so the effect is on the spear...not on the critter. The spear hits hard and fast, which is functionally identical to having a big Strength bonus. That's how I interpret the rules, anyway. |
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Finniss |
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I disagreed with Jag at first but now I actually think he's correctly interpreting RAW. If Ghost weapon spell created the Ghost Weapon, there wouldn't
be doubt that SR applies, but that's not how the spell works. Ghost weapon magically alters your weapon. Like he said, enlarge, bless, eldrich armour, and
other spells shouldn't be bypassed by SR. It also states (harmless) by SR which makes it even clearer what Monte's intentions were.
All that said, I'll probably house rule that ghost weapon is still affected by SR because it's a bit overpowered in my opinion and it's a decent way to bring it back into line with other checks and balances. |
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Sslissth |
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I would disagree with a Ghost Touch spell allowing an SR check.
When, say, a Spectre touches the PC, you do not get an SR check against its incorporeal touch. Against energy drains, or aging from other incorporeal creatures such as a ghost, yes. Against the actual attack? No, but it still deals damage. First, Ghost Weapon only targets the weapon. As someone else said, the *weapon*, being the target, gets the save and/or the SR check. The only creatures allowed an SR check are creatures directly targeted by a spell (target = mook) or if the creature is in the area of an area-effect spell (no target listed, area = blast radius/line/cone). Second, a weapon affected by Ghost Weapon ignores armor. It does not actually do anything worse to the creature. Similarly, when attacking an incorporeal creature, it just means the weapon gets past the creature's incorporeal defenses... it doesn't actually affect the creature itself. If the spell were instead called "Ignore Armor", I suspect we would be having an entirely different conversation. But Ghost Weapon does not target the creature, it targets the sword. It doesn't even *affect* the creature, it affects the creature's armor. It does nothing special to the creature. If you succesfully burned or melted all the armor off the creature, it would be just as vulnerable to your weapon. If you caught it sleeping at night without wearing its armor, your weapon will perform exactly the same whether it had Ghost Touch on it or not. Note that the spell description does not actually make the weapon incorporeal. You can still hold it, it just passes through armor and acts as a force weapon against incorporeal creatures. Which means that said Ghost Weapon is *not* insubstantial. It can be sundered or disarmed. Heck... since the spell says it ignores armor, and not weapons, I'd argue it can even be parried. It can't be stuck through the wall to kill the guy hiding behind it, unless you and the weapon are both strong enough to punch through a wall, as the spell ignores armor, not cover. It's not incorporeal. If you think it is overpowered, think on this: a creature with armor (leaving aside for the moment natural armor) probably has some familiarity with weapons, which means sundering, dodging, disarming, and parrying are all options. Heck, even a mook with a crappy non-magical weapon has a chance to disarm it, dodge it, parry it, or even sunder it assuming the target of Ghost Weapon is a non-magical weapon as well. I'd argue the only creatures it is significantly powerful against is something with natural armor such as dragons, and if a dragon can't deal with a paltry 5th-level spell, then it's a fairly weak one. Frankly, as a spell it's useful, but hardly overpowering. Start giving your NPCs the Sunder feat and USE it. Remember, mobs *can* be intelligent. Tiburon, if the weapon were a *carrier* of a spell, I would argue that SR would apply. If a mageblade used an athame to deliver a touch spell through the blade, well, yes. The target would be entitled to an SR check, because in this case, the weapon is not the target. It is a carrier of a touch spell, whose target is the creature attacked with the weapon. But a weapon with Ghost Touch does not apply any magical effect to the creature anymore than an enhancement bonus does. An enhancement bonus increases the ability for a strike to get through armor; so does Ghost Weapon, only more so. The weapon is a 'carrier' of an enhancement bonus just as it is a 'carrier' of Ghost Weapon, but in both cases the original target of the magic is the weapon, not the creature, and neither magical effect targets the creature directly, only the ability of the wielder to get through armor. For everyone's edification: "Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature's mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else (the air, the ground, the room's light), and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required." DMG, pg 82. Continued, it says "When in doubt about whether a spell's effect is direct or indirect, consider the spell's school." In this case, we consider Transmutation. "These spells are subject to spell resistance if they transform the target creature. Transmutation spells are not subject to spell resistance if they are targeted on a point in space instead of on a creature. ... Some transmutations make objects harmful (or more harmful) such as magic stone. Even these spells are not generally subject to spell resistance because they affect the objects, not the creatures against which the objects are used." (edit: fixed glaring and frankly frightening typos) In the desert there is no mercy...but I am not in the desert now.
Last Edited By: Sslissth
05/25/09 10:33:46.
Edited 1 times.
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Finniss |
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I agree with what you say Sslissth but I'm going to nit pick one thing.
It doesn't even *affect* the creature, it affects the creature's armor. It does nothing special to the creature. If a spell were to target the creatures armour it still gets the same save and SR as the creature. In this case it doesn't target the armour but it does affect it. It still doesn't get SR or a save but there is no distinction between a creature and it's possessions for SR or saves. |
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Jagyr Ebonwood |
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Sslissth wrote: I wish I could have found that quote weeks ago That pretty much
answers the exact question that was raised in this thread.
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