Does anyone know of (or done) a reliable conversion of Marvel Superheroes abilities into D20? My players are getting pretty high level, and for my own
curiosity I'd like to compare them. Like, how much more agile is Spider Man than my party's archer? What's the CON of Wolverine?
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D20 (3.5?) Stats for Marvel Superheroes
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 drsparnum |
D20 (3.5?) Stats for Marvel Superheroes |
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Posts: 1403 (04/10/09 17:32:58) Cryptic |
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Confused Jackal Mage |
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Posts: 6569 (04/10/09 19:55:15) Iron Liege |
I really don't think 3.5 (or D&D in general) handles superheroes well. You really want a d20 system like Mutants & Masterminds (which is great fun,
btw).
"Observer-dependent physics undermines the gods' decision 3000 years ago to ban cats from straddling the borders of the
netherworld. We won't have it!"
"I have reservations about reconciling a quantum mechanics thought experiment with egyptian mythology." "Djinn and Juice", Dresden Codak |
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 seankreynolds |
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Posts: 2345 (04/11/09 08:26:51) Archangel |
It depends on what power scale you're talking about. Regular d20 would have a hard time modeling Thor and the Silver Surfer, but I'm pretty sure it
could do Wolverine, Cyclops, Captain America, etc.
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Utgardloki |
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Posts: 198 (04/11/09 10:28:33) |
The answer is: whatever you want them to be. In most cases, stats are just arbitrary numbers placed on a character. In some cases you can define a minimum or
maximum based on what a character can or can not do, but otherwise it's pretty much arbitrary.
A case in point is the ancient argument about what Gandalf the Grey would be in a D&D game. Some people argue that he'd be an uber-level multiclassed epic character, while others argue that he'd be about 8th level or so. I once did an exercise of creating a 2nd level pregen party based on the Justice League, but that was totally bogus because while the abilities of the characters were modelled after the Justice League, they were nowhere near the Justice League's League. Another way of looking at it is whether your PCs are capable of what the superheroes from the comic books are capable of. Can they lift as much as Spider-Man? Can they dodge as well as Captain America. For what it's worth, I did figure that based on the D&D rules, I figured that the Silver Age Superman had a Strength score of about 400. That's because I noticed that carrying capacity approximately doubles for every five point gain, so at about 400 a character would be strong enough to push/drag a planet, which is about what the Silver Age Superman could do. I also came up with an Intellect Level Theory that can be used to rate comic book and science fiction characters Intelligence score. I came up with it for planning a science fiction setting before I decided which game system to use, and allows an approximate rating of a superhuman intelligence. Then a few assumptions can relate Intellect Level to an intelligence score in an RPG. Using this, I rated Lt. Spock's Intelligence at 30. Mr. Fantastic would be somewhere around 50. Galactus, based on the fact that he is one of the most technologically advanced creatures in the Marvel Universe, comes out at about 400. (Or at least, that is about where the equivalent character in my science fiction setting sits; an intellect that far beyond humanity is beyond our comprehension to really understand.) Character level could be guesstimated by how "experienced" the character is in the setting. The most experienced mortals like Superman or Captain America could be set near 30th level, with others based on that scale. Some characters are immortal, even gods like Thor, so I suppose you could go to the deities book to find out what his stats are. |
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drsparnum |
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Posts: 1404 (04/11/09 16:29:29) Cryptic |
That's the sort of thing I'm looking for.
I remember playing a friend's Marvel Super Heroes game a long time ago that rated the heroes abilities with scores like "incredible" or "amazing." I was thinking that if I could get hard data on how much someone with a given STR rating in that game could lift (for example, incredible STR might let you lift a car over your head) I could then translate that back into the 2E D&D STR score that lists how much weight a character with a given STR score can military press. I could use STR to define the key (maybe incredible = 35 STR, amazing =40 STR or something like that). With that key in hand I could then do all 6 of the DND stats. But I don't have my 2E books anymore, and I never actually owned the Marvel game so no dice. And I'm not sure that the Marvel game ever clearly told you a character with x STR can lift something weighing y pounds. I just want to put my characters high scores in perspective for no real reason. |
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seankreynolds |
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Posts: 2346 (04/11/09 21:07:32) Archangel |
Actually, MSH was pretty awesome about telling you what a character of Str ## could lift. And someone has done the conversion for you.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=401486 |
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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Posts: 8017 (04/13/09 10:05:34) Enigma |
One of the problems is the completely linear scaling D&D uses for modifiers...except for lifting, which is geometric.
Useful article comparing MSH and GURPS: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=3527 Sean, you mentioned being able to define Cyclops...not by this. His optic blast is defined as Monstrous...so we're talking a 40d6 or 50d6 *at-will* attack. Spidey would probably be Str 60, Dex 50, along with +10 or +15 Dodge (from his spider-senses). You can't translate the major Marvel characters into D&D levels; it's just not possible. A better approach would probably be to define them via monster rules, then *try* to guess an appropriate CR...but that's not going to work particularly well in many cases either. Spidey and Cap don't have hit points; they just don't ever get hit. So...how many hit dice do they get? I've toyed with notional power levels for the comic book heroes for a long time. The levels relate to what, in the absence of a superhero, the needed response would be, and roughly the degree of threat: --Local: villain could take out a few blocks at most; multiple SWAT squads, with helicopters. Example heroes: Robin/Nightwing, Daredevil --City: villain can threaten square miles; National Guard help, including heavy weapons. Example heroes: Spidey, Cap, Batman --Regional: full military response, with everything except nukes. Example heroes: Iron Man --National: remove the exception for nukes. Few heroes, solo, are at this level; Thor might be one. This is where you're dealing with hero teams more often. --Planetary: There is no conventional response; the villain would laugh at a nuke. For solo heroes, probably *only* Silver Age Superman is really at this level. For D&D, a rough translation could be: Local: 5th level City: 15th level Regional: 30th National: 60th Planetary: don't even try Note too that these are only trying to measure relative power. The systems are just too dissimilar to do more than that. |
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seankreynolds |
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Posts: 2347 (04/13/09 12:03:36) Archangel |
I don't think you're trying hard enough.
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DerekDyer |
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Posts: 7169 (04/13/09 15:52:29) Just showed up |
There's a reason that superhero games tend towards point buy and not "levels"...
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drsparnum |
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Posts: 1405 (04/14/09 16:11:58) Cryptic |
Very interesting.
Good find on that thread Sean. Anyone know where I can get the stats of the superheroes included in the MSH game, for free? That thread works for STR, but doesn't give me a superhero comparator for other ability scores. Definite progress here. |
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DerekDyer |
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Posts: 7175 (04/14/09 18:41:31) Just showed up |
Use search terms like: Marvel, faserip, heroes
I didn't find it in my 60 seconds search, but here's what I did find. http://www.roninarts.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=22 http://www.librarything.com/tag/FASERIP I stand corrected, I found this on a link on one of those pages: http://www.marvelrpg.net/ http://www.marvelrpg.net/mu/mu.html |
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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Posts: 8026 (04/15/09 08:01:22) Enigma |
That site also has the Basic Set and Advanced Set rules. The Advanced Set is probably what you want.
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Dogbert |
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Posts: 29 (04/24/09 04:03:58) |
Marvel bios used to handle categories though, as far as I remember, these were:
-Human -Athlete -Peak Human -Superhuman -Supernatural Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... these categories are old however, and new marvel bios are all numeric a-la Overpower (the CCG), you might have to do some scrounging through old comics to see the categories I'm mentioning. As a benchmark.... 10 is the population's average ("Human" in Marvel terms) while 18 is the top natural limit for a human ("Peak Human"), which would be the point where Black Panther is. My estimate for "Superhuman" is anywhere between 19 to 24, which is where you'd put Spidey, Capt. America, and the like. "Supernatural" is a rather 'token' category to say the individual is on a league of his own, one that can't be measured by numbers (you might as well call this stat "infinite" or "unmeasureable"): Hulk's strength, Ghost Rider's endurance, Doctor Strange's magic power, etc. "Supernatural" stats wouldn't be represented by a numeric stat as much as by a rank in a superpower, and would rather be the domain of d20's version of Aberrant. Likewise, some atributes are better expressed as superpowers than as raw stats: Spider-Man, if I remember right, can lift up to 6 tons above his head, which (in PF at least, too lazy to open the SDR right now) would translate as a STR score of 40-something, +15 to atk/dmg on melee, which translates as him being able to reduce a 4hp commoner to a bloody pulp on a backhand... not something he can actually do.... and let's not even get to Iron-Man, as his Heroes-Reborn armor lifted up to 100tons (and current armor leaves previous ones in the dust).
"It's the good thing of being a pessimist: You only get good surprises"
--Strahd, "I, Strahd: Memoirs of a Vampire"
Last Edited By: Dogbert
04/24/09 04:23:38.
Edited 3 times.
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seankreynolds |
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Posts: 2351 (04/24/09 07:14:02) Archangel |
{Spider-Man, if I remember right, can lift up to 6 tons above his head, which (in PF at least, too lazy to open the SDR right now) would translate as a STR
score of 40-something, +15 to atk/dmg on melee, which translates as him being able to reduce a 4hp commoner to a bloody pulp on a backhand... not something he
can actually do....}
Just because he DOESN'T do that in the comics doesn't mean he CAN'T do it. He is physically that strong--he hits like a collision with a truck, but he pulls his punches with normal people because he doesn't want to kill them.
Last Edited By: seankreynolds
04/24/09 07:22:22.
Edited 1 times.
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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Posts: 8079 (04/24/09 08:51:02) Enigma |
I seem to recall battles with some villains, where Spidey uses a steel I-beam as a club.
Against normals, yeah, he's giving them a tap...for him. Or he webs them a lot...incapacitates them, binds them for pick-up by the cops, doesn't
risk causing serious injury through even a *slight* lapse of control.
Both Basic and Advanced set defines Typical as 5-7, not 10. 10 is Good; 20 is Olympic; 30 is "limit of natural human ability." The Advanced Set uses the Rank terms: Poor, Typical, Good, Excellent, and so on, and IIRC there are comments that Remarkable (30) is the "limit of natural human ability." The Marvel Universe sourcebooks give Spidey a 40 Str, 50 Agility. These date back to the 80's through early 90's. Dunno about the current ones...but if 18 is the LoNHA, then yeah, Spidey is about a 24. But, don't try to say that, in D&D terms, 18 is LoNHA. It's not. LoNHA would have to be around 25 to 27...base 18, +2 racial mod ('human' has to be taken somewhat liberally), and +5 more from leveling up. This has no magical augmentation. |
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arnoldnido |
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Posts: 2271 (04/24/09 10:22:24) "Monte Hates Me" |
Different stats have a different level of maximum human limit in FASERIP.
Remarkable is Correct for Endurance. Excellent is max human for STR Amazing is max human for Fighting. forget agility but you can just find Captain America's stats (Steve rogers version) and that shows max human potential for physical stats.
"The problem with ideology is, if you've got an ideology, you've already got your mind made up. You know all the answers and that makes evidence
irrelevant and arguments a waste of time. You tend to govern by assertion and attacks"
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Aelryinth |
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Posts: 3676 (07/05/09 16:55:40) Let's call that |
you can figure the super soldier serum sets all stats to base 18, and advances all physical stats equally with level. Captain America is a genius in the field
of tactics, strategy and military sciences...nobody on the planet can rival him.
Mr. Fantastic, by the way, is considered one of the most intelligent beings in the whole universe. he doesn't have cosmic awareness, which would translate to more of a mass wisdom score, but arguably he's smarter then Galactus is. (stretch, brain, stretch). I believe as stands Spiderman can now bench 15 tons. The problem with the d20 str system is str scores of 50 to 100 tons all fall into a five point range, since Str doubles every 5 points. This amounts to rapidly diminishing returns on Str in the game system (Thor, with class 100 str, only has +3 to hit/dmg over Rogue, who has 50 tons Str.) Also, Strength scores in the Marvel Universe seem to converge on the 15-25 ton range (Power Man and SPider Man) and then take a big hike up to 75+ (Mrs. Marvel, Iron Man, rising to Thing, She-Hulk, Colossus, and the stronger ones beyond that). Note that at one point Colossus was 75 tons, and is now described as Class 100, whereas the Thing was 85 tons. She Hulk sat around 60, Mrs. Marvel was 50, and Titania was actually stronger then She Hulk at 75 tons. They all seem to have gotten buffed up (levels?). As for Cyclops, that eyebeam of his is constantly being underpowered. he's basically an unlimited psychokinetic, with his TK 'lance' ability riding the light beam he projects. That's why he can make the beam ricochet if he wants to, or power thru something. he's a massively powerful psion, although he only has the one shtick...which is why that Summers bloodline is so damn strong. I think it's funny how they justify She Hulk's new strength as Jennifer Walters going out and getting buff. She doubled her Strength, so naturally She Hulk did too! (heh). If that was the case, then give Bruce Banner a few months of Body by Jake, and exactly how strong would the Hulk be? ==Aelryinth |
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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Posts: 8208 (07/06/09 07:59:22) Enigma |
To summarize what you're pointing out: D&D designs around a relatively narrow spread, and wants fine-grained distinctions within that spread. MSH has
an incredibly huge spread, so only gross differences matter.
Another point: D&D and MSH use ability scores in very different ways. In MSH, a very high ability score is often itself a 'power.' In D&D, ability scores are rarely used in a raw fashion; they're channeled through equipment. Barring special-effects justifications for powers (Spidey's web shooters, for example) and the occasional Tin Suit where the equipment itself *is* the powers (Iron Man), superhero rules sets don't deal with equipment. In D&D, equipment is central. How do you give someone an AC 40? Most of the time, 25-28 points of that will be from equipment. |
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Aelryinth |
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Posts: 3679 (07/11/09 18:25:50) Let's call that |
Yeah, i see that.
I mean, take a look at a girdle of giant Strength. Str doubles every 5 points, right? Well, a +6 belt is basically a belt of +3 TH/DMG. the ability to go from lifting 50 tons to 100 tons, for example, is completely overlooked. If we follow this example, 25 Int is twice as smart as 20 Int, etc. there's also the fact that was first brought up in the Submariner books...you don't have to have a stated invulnerability factor if you are superstrong...your muscles are stronger then steel, and bullets are going to bounce off you regardless. It's not like you're made of the same stuff as a normal human if you can toss a car a klik or two... Another thing I'd like to point out is that being massively strong and able to pick things up doesn't neccessarily mean you hit stuff harder. Hitting stuff is based on how FAST your hand is moving...i.e. the kinetic energy dump. Power doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with strength. Someone immensely strong but only human fast isn't any worse then getting hit by a baseball bat. Unless he can whip his arm at supersonic speeds, he can't throw you any farther then, say, someone could throw a baseball...it's all based on arm speed. So, all those superstrong guys that can slug one another into the next county? Their blows are probably breaking the sound barrier. hence the noise level. ===Aelryinth |
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Confused Jackal Mage |
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Posts: 6761 (07/12/09 17:59:37) Iron Liege |
SKR has pointed out before that the "+5 means doubling" is supposed to work pretty generally for all the stats.
Superstrength but human-fast, though, makes for a *crazy* grappler. That'd be those builds that can wrestle a dragon, I suppose.
Imagine the culture we would live in now if, instead of a dead corpse on an instrument of torture, our signifier was a child staring in wonder at the
stars.
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Tiburon Silverflame |
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Posts: 8219 (07/13/09 07:59:57) Enigma |
Mike Tyson's hands weren't incredibly fast, even back in his prime when he could be mentioned as possibly one of the greatest boxers of all time. Tim
Lincecum can throw upwards of 95 mph on his fastball; he's 5'11, and 170 or so. SKINNY kid. The power comes from getting everything all together at one
time. But game systems can't readily model the difference between fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles, so they almost always translate high Str to high
damage.
Insofar as lifting capacity: remember that, for the most part, neither MSH nor D&D plays that up all that much. In D&D, the only major rules use is carrying capacity, and that rarely comes into play (and usually, only on the low end of Str). In MSH, more often I think you just translate to the general level term, so Amazing damage beats Remarkable defense. There's a loose association between sheer, raw weight and the ability to lift, but there are plenty of fudge factors which can come into play, so it's pretty much the GM's call as to the FEAT level...which means, you're dealing with the general level again. Same goes for Int, but that's even more vague. There's no objective definition to be able to say "I'm twice as smart as you." |
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