Noble (fixes)

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theBlackJaw	Noble (fixes)	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2086 (01/10/09 20:23:38) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : noble, multiclass, alea, 3rd party It looks like my current character (an eladrin artificer) is dead. My next character will be a Tiefling Warlord Noble. I'm using the Noble multiclass from Alea Publishing. (http://enworld.rpgnow.com...fo.php?products_id=58422) I've been mostly happy with the document, but it seems to have screwed some stuff up design wise, the biggest of which seems to be how they handle non-weapon attacks. The non-weapon powers lack any source of a enhancement bonus. The class provides powers where you invoke your bloodline power source and demand enemies neal before you, etc. Most of these do Psychic damage and are Charisma vs Will... but without a weapon or implement they won't scale well. The Fix: I figure Noble should be able to use an implement, in this case I think a Rod works well as the "scepter or rulership" sort of thing. Historicaly many rulers in many cultures had something along these lines. Unfortunetly most rods in the 4ed right now are Warlock spicific... but that a minor issue. Anyone else pick this pdf up and make any changes? I noticed they have some odd powers in there that work strangly or break 4ed design rules (Like a power that lasts a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier... 4ed isn't supposed to work that way.) --BlackJaw "May the Orc spit in your Pie!" --BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-- GO d- s:- a- C++ UL->+ P+ L>+ E? W+++ N+ o? K? w+(-) O? M@ V? !PS PE@ Y+ PGP t-- 5-(+) X R++>+++$ tv+ b++$ DI++ D++ G e++ h+ !r y+ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- Last Edited By: theBlackJaw 01/18/09 16:42:14. Edited 1 time.
Braro		#1	[-]
Posts: 2241 (01/10/09 20:29:48) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	First of all, lets hear it for Tiefling Warlords! Woo! Doing a rod, or a special implement like a crown or a signet ring (working like a Holy Symbol), is probably the best bet. There is a generic scale that can be sussed out, both from the Dragonborn, the Shield based fighter, and so on, but giving it an implement would work just fine. Most of the Holy Symbols, as near as I can recall, are pretty generic; they offer healing boosts or damage boosts or so on, so they should work well with a warlord. So far, as far as third party stuff goes, I feel like there's a high number of people who just didn't get it; you mention the duration based on your cha modifer, and I've also seen some really weird stats (+4 to a single one), and some seldom useful racial powers. That being said, it shouldn't be hard to really rebalance, and from what I've heard the Noble is a good idea of a class. Really, the "Multiclass Only" classes is interesting design space; they offer the ability to customize a character, without deviating too much from your main character. I think that a lot of the new design stuff is going to come in as multiclass only classes, truth be told.
Cthon		#2	[-]
Posts: 6623 (01/10/09 22:41:34) No need for labels, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	One could just as well call the "multiclass only" idea a feat class, too. _______________________ bored with changing signatures
DerekDyer		#3	[-]
Posts: 7058 (01/10/09 23:26:11) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You could call it a feat class, but regardless it is really interesting design space. It was a fairly obvious design step to me from the beginning and I wondered whether WotC had plans to use it as such or discourage it... They clearly embraced it with the spellplague umm stuff. From a design perspective it's alot easier to create 10% of a class and one can actually use it MCOnly long before it's complete or enough so to use it by itself, or you can decide to keep it McOnly. I agree, the Noble is missing out on a tool to enhance their powers. I also agree that a Rod would work well for them.
Braro		#4	[-]
Posts: 2243 (01/11/09 08:53:36) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Really, with a "feat class" or MCoC, I think you only HAVE to have about one power per level, depending on how narrow it is. The Spellplague is really two separate sets of powers, one for weapons and one for implements. (Casters and warriors, effectively.) Essentially, it's an idea of letting yourself use feats to get personalized powers; that alone could be kind of neat, come to think of it.
SeanKhan		#5	[-]
Posts: 269 (01/11/09 14:15:39) What's going on? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Noble? I'm intrigued! I'd appreciate hearing a bit more of it does it have more rpg-oriented powers than current phb classes? Does it feel balanced? Rod sounds like a good implement to me. Or, a selected type of melee weapon, chosen at character creation. I'd give both rod & one melee weapon for flavour purposes.
DerekDyer		#6	[-]
Posts: 7059 (01/11/09 14:55:08) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'd just give them one implement (rod) and then create a magic weapon that works as a rod (if there isn't one already), or that works as a nobles implement (to be more narrow/specific). That seems to follow how it's done in core.
Braro		#7	[-]
Posts: 2245 (01/11/09 16:06:09) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mentioning the melee weapon makes me think about using a longsword or a spear; a traditionally lordly set of weapons. Maybe you should just let each individual character use a weapon/implement of their choosing?
theBlackJaw		#8	[-]
Posts: 2087 (01/11/09 16:33:28) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Noble class's powers for the most part are combat orientated. I was, in fact, a little disappointed with the utility powers. It's not till paragon level or higher that you see a few that would work well in a skill challenge. The powers are for the most part balanced. There are a few of them that are broken however. For example there is a stance that causes enemies adjacent to you to grant you combat advantage that I feel is a bit too much. There are a few powers that are a bit wonky in the workings, like powers that are reliable when it would likely have been better to give it a Miss or Effect instead. And as I said previously, a few of the powers break 4ed design rules, like having durations. A couple of the powers seem weaker then similar powers (Warlord's strike vs Mark of the Blue Blood.) The PDF also misses out on some things I think they should have provided. A Noble themed Paragon class and Noble themed Epic destiny are lacking, as are any noble related feats or gear. They do provide an NPC template and a sample NPC. Epic destiny wise, there is a forgotten realms Epic destiny about becoming a legendary king and founding a dynasty that works well for the concept. Still, there are enough powers there that seem good and fair, and the quality of the typesetting the like, is good enough to more then justify the couple of dollars the PDF cost. I'm really looking forward to the powers that cause enemies to bow before you. One of them causes the target to prostrate before you, and if he gets up on his next turn, he takes psychic damage... I like that one. There is also a utility power for having an ally switch places with you when you are hit by an attack (sort of a bodyguard thing.) Psychic damage is the most common special damage provided as the powers tend include intimidating or taunting enemies with a commanding bloodline enhanced noble voice. There is even a Zoro-ish power where you slash your family crest onto a target over a number of rounds (epic power). The powers mostly include either weapon powers (mostly melee) or ranged non-weapon powers (which should have had an implement.) A few powers call out specific class features, like Artful Dodger, so they did try to get the noble class to be useful across a few backgrounds... still it's mostly STR and CHA based attacks, so it works best for only a few classes/class builds. --BlackJaw "May the Orc spit in your Pie!" --BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-- GO d- s:- a- C++ UL->+ P+ L>+ E? W+++ N+ o? K? w+(-) O? M@ V? !PS PE@ Y+ PGP t-- 5-(+) X R++>+++$ tv+ b++$ DI++ D++ G e++ h+ !r y+ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
theBlackJaw		#9	[-]
Posts: 2088 (01/11/09 16:46:45) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	as far as implements go, I think a good option might be "You gain Rod, and may use any implements you are already trained in with your Noble powers." That way a paladin noble can use his holy symbol while wizard noble will use his wand. Fighter and Warlord nobles will gain Rod to work with if they take non-weapon noble powers. --BlackJaw "May the Orc spit in your Pie!" --BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-- GO d- s:- a- C++ UL->+ P+ L>+ E? W+++ N+ o? K? w+(-) O? M@ V? !PS PE@ Y+ PGP t-- 5-(+) X R++>+++$ tv+ b++$ DI++ D++ G e++ h+ !r y+ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
Braro		#10	[-]
Posts: 2246 (01/11/09 17:02:02) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	theBlackJaw, I think that's the most elegant way of doing it. The Spelltouched thing from FRCS lets you use any implements that you already know, but this lets you have a lords scepter. I know that one Archmage/Lord in a previous game had his staff (or staves, rather) be one of his big symbols; it was one of the aspects of his term as a noble that he really played up. I'm a bit iffy on the idea of having a non-magical thing do Psychic damage, but it makes a lot of sense; Psychic should be seen in this new edition as "mental." Feigned pain, stress, illusionary shocks, morale busters, and so on all fall under it, and it would be very interesting to see a Fear based class that does a lot of damage via Psychic effect. It could work as a controller, actually. You could be up close in melee, and use range fear-based powers to stun, damage, or status effect things. You could have some close bursts that push away as your fear aura works. Hmm. EDIT: Actually, does the Noble even have a power source geared to it? Last Edited By: Braro 01/11/09 17:05:55. Edited 1 times.
theBlackJaw		#11	[-]
Posts: 2089 (01/11/09 19:24:15) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The Noble class the "Bloodline" power source and many of it's powers are distinctly supernatural. You aren't just insulting a guy and doing psychic damage... you're calling on your bloodline's latent power to make your words literally hurt. Psychic makes more sense then any other damage type I guess. --BlackJaw "May the Orc spit in your Pie!" --BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-- GO d- s:- a- C++ UL->+ P+ L>+ E? W+++ N+ o? K? w+(-) O? M@ V? !PS PE@ Y+ PGP t-- 5-(+) X R++>+++$ tv+ b++$ DI++ D++ G e++ h+ !r y+ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
Braro		#12	[-]
Posts: 2247 (01/11/09 19:29:26) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hmm, I'm getting tempted to buy it. I've been looking over some 3rd party stuff for 4e, and I think that creating a unique power source isn't a bad idea. I'm not sure that some power sources needs more than one class, especially those that are used with feat classes.
Carthain		#13	[-]
Posts: 13616 (01/12/09 10:44:01) Keeper of the FAQ Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I like the idea of using "Rod" as an implement -- I also have visions of an ancestral weapon (or other item) that has the ability to be used as a Noble Implement for a certain house (or for whomever it makes sense .. if a rival house is using it to cause some sort of dissent by displaying that they have it.) How do they work the Noble class? Is it just a single feat, with then access to powers (and is that how the spellplague works?), or is it a series of feats? I only ask 'cause the Dhampyr that they showed today is a bloodline (you're half-vampire) that is accessible through a feat, and you gain more power options by taking other/additional feats (you can then swap out one of your existing powers of level X or higher for those ones granted by the feats.) As for the power source -- does it really matter? The Dhampyr example doesn't give an additional power source, and neither really do any of the racial abilities (such as the Dragonborn's breath attack.) And monsters don't have power sources -- so would having a "noble" power source, or "bloodline" power source really add anything to the game? Carthain. "Eschew Obfuscation."
Braro		#14	[-]
Posts: 2248 (01/12/09 11:21:55) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I believe the Noble works the same way as the Spellplagued; how, exactly, is the Dhampyr that different from the Spellplagued? As for the power source, it doesn't matter, but I find it interesting. It's just a train of thought I have, and it helps me look at things in a different way. For example, when 4e first came out, I came up with an idea for a dragon magic user, but couldn't make enough "theme" to roll in to a base class, partially because it was emulating a creature, not a power source. A multiclass only class might work great for this, because thematically, they are unique corner cases instead of full power-source users.
Carthain		#15	[-]
Posts: 13619 (01/12/09 11:45:46) Keeper of the FAQ Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	looks up the spellplague Okay, the Dhampyr is different in a few ways: * Not an actual multiclass feat - so you could still be a Fighter/Wizard Elf Dhampyr ^_^ * The base feat gives you one encounter power (forget what it's called, but lets you 'bite' grabbed an opponent, and then use a healing surge.) * Additional abilities require additional feats -- similar to the Novice/Acolyte/Adept Power feats, but each feat is specific in the ability you get to swap out (or gives you a different bonus like a regular feat.) As a side note, some of the Dhampyr feats are the first ones I've seen with actual level requirements (instead of just what Tier they are.) Carthain. "Eschew Obfuscation."
Braro		#16	[-]
Posts: 2250 (01/12/09 11:55:23) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Interesting. So it's similiar, but unique, mainly in that it has specific powers to the feats. I think the "bite" is kind of seen as the encounter ability/powers that the multiclass feats give.
theBlackJaw		#17	[-]
Posts: 2090 (01/12/09 20:57:05) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Noble is a distinct multiclass feat that provides 3 minor abilities that you pick from when you take the class. The noble I'm working on will have Noble temperament, which is a +2 bonus to diplomacy and a small amount of Psychic resistance that increases every few levels. You also get an odd little draw back: Noble frailty. For the round after you use a bloodline power, minions get a small bonus against you. Beyond that you use the existing multiclass power swap feats to pick up gain noble powers (which does mean those handful of nifty level 1 daily powers can't be swapped till your almost paragon!) The class does not have any at-will powers, so you couldn't take the Multiclass paragon option, nor does it provide any paragon paths. Again, It's not perfect, but for less then $3 I do feel good about the purchase. If it had Paragon paths, an Epic destiny, some Noble feats options, a few more sample NPCs so they could cover various types of nobles at various tiers of play, and some noble related items I would have happily paid up to $10 dollars. Instead I'm on here trying to work out some options for it so it fills out. Also: I think the publishers are working on a Birthright like setting and the Noble multiclass info they have released will be a part of that. I suspect they have greater plans for the Bloodline power source in the future. --BlackJaw "May the Orc spit in your Pie!" --BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-- GO d- s:- a- C++ UL->+ P+ L>+ E? W+++ N+ o? K? w+(-) O? M@ V? !PS PE@ Y+ PGP t-- 5-(+) X R++>+++$ tv+ b++$ DI++ D++ G e++ h+ !r y+ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
Eldric IV		#18	[-]
Posts: 10101 (01/12/09 22:30:16) Resident Paladin Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You can still paragon multiclass into Noble, you just do not have an option to switch at-will powers. Final Words, before the battle with Demogorgon: My life does not matter. It was given to me to better the lives of my people. Please give the Pureblade to my son so that he may finish what I start here today.
madfox		#19	[-]
Posts: 6732 (01/13/09 08:45:54) That's a lot of posts. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	theBlackJaw wrote: Also: I think the publishers are working on a Birthright like setting and the Noble multiclass info they have released will be a part of that. I suspect they have greater plans for the Bloodline power source in the future. It is for the Birthright Campaign that certainly peeks my interest for this class. It is an obvious source for the noble powers, although, in Birthright you must adapt the nature of the powers to the type of bloodline. A person with the bloodline of Brenna is going to have different powers from Masela. On the other hand, I am also looking at doing something like the Dhampyr method to deal with bloodlines. It is easier to design and implement, especially since I only need the stuff for the PCs in my group and not for all potential builds out there. Up until recently I avoided bloodlines all together, but obviously for the meta-plot of my campaign I couldn't resist opening it up and now one PC found he is blooded through bloodtheft, so now I actually have to consider how to implement it.
theBlackJaw		#20	[-]
Posts: 2091 (01/13/09 17:08:45) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Alea Publishing is working on a "Feudal Lords" setting, so not exactly Birthright. Right now the Noble multiclass and a strange monster are their only two product in that setting I can find. They have links to a few other things, including a city, but they are not coming up on the sales sight. http://www.aleapublishing.com/ --BlackJaw "May the Orc spit in your Pie!" --BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-- GO d- s:- a- C++ UL->+ P+ L>+ E? W+++ N+ o? K? w+(-) O? M@ V? !PS PE@ Y+ PGP t-- 5-(+) X R++>+++$ tv+ b++$ DI++ D++ G e++ h+ !r y+ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

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