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dok |
Rules for climbing on foes, ala Shadow of the Colossus? |
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Before I try to hack together some rules (based losely on IH combat stunts and other bits & pieces), has anyone already put together rules for creatures
climbing on foes larger than them? I have a loose framework in my head, but before I start fleshing it out, I thought I'd see if anyone else has done the
work for me.
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Cthon |
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I think there are some Bo9S maneuvers like this, in the Tiger Claw school. I don't mean that you should just adopt the moves, but they boil it down to a
skill check and an attack roll. I like that kind of simplicity.
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bored with changing signatures |
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dok |
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I was thinking an Iron Heroes approach: opposed Climb check versus Attack roll, (Stunt) with options each round. (similar to the "lift over head"
grappling option in IH) The "climber" could try to distract the "climbed-on" and throw them off balance, or attempt to grab a worn
item/rifle through a pouch, attack with a light weapon at a penalty, or try to 'attack a tender spot'. The "climbed-on" would have the option
to shake-off climbers as a free/move/standard/full action, or crush/roll over, or attack with light weapons at a penalty.
"Climbers" would lose dex to AC, and follow a mix of climbing & grappling rules. "Climbed-on" folks wouldn't, but would have good options to respond. And there'd be a minimum two-size category difference: halflings could 'climb' ogres, but not dwarves. |
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zadoc |
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Complete Warrior has the Giantbane tactical feat. One of the maneuvers, Climb Aboard, lets you climb onto a creature two sizes larger with a DC 10 Climb check
as a free action, giving the climbed creature a -4 penalty to hit you, you move with it, and it can try to shake you off with grapple opposed to your Climb.
This could be adapted as a general ability by making the Climb check harder and more of an action.
Dungeonscape has the Hammer and Piton style feat, which lets someone fighting with a bludgeoning weapon in one hand an a piton in the other make a touch attack as a standard action to damage with the piton and, if successful against a creature one size category larger, you can mane a Climb check against the target's AC to hang on to him and move with him, making Climb checks to hang on when you take damage (DC equal to the damage). |
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dok |
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1st pass:
To Climb on a foe The target must be at least two sizes larger. The Climber must move into the Target's square, provoking an AoO and succeed on a touch attack; if the AoO deals damage, the attempt is stopped. The Improved Grapple feat prevents this AoO. The Climber then rolls a Climb check, opposed by the Target's attack roll. If the check fails, the Climber is forced back into the last square occupied. Otherwise, the Climber is now climbing on the Target, and may climb a distance of 1/4 their base movement along the target. When Climbing on a foe The Climber loses their Dexterity bonus to AC. Creatures with a natural Climb speed retain their Dex bonus. The Climber is considered 'in contact' with the Target, and suffers any effects that would occur from striking it with natural weapons or otherwise touching it i.e. climbing on a Fire elemental subjects the Climber to fire damage. The Climber threatens squares around them normally, but only the squares around themselves; they do not consider the Target's size in determining threatened squares. (a climber on one square of a horse threatens only the 5 adjacent squares, versus a rider who threatens 12) The climber must have at least one hand free at all times. As a Standard action, the Climber may attack with a natural weapon, unarmed strike, or light weapon at a -4 penalty. (this does not provoke an AoO) Alternatively, the Climber may attack a worn or carried item without provoking an attack of opportunity with the same penalty. As a Move action, the Climber may draw a one-handed or light weapon, or other one-handed item from a sheath or other easily accessable location. As a Standard action, the Climber may attempt to throw the Target off-balance. With a successful Climb check opposed by the Target's attack roll, the Target suffers a -2 penalty to Armor Class, attacks, and skill checks for the next round. The Climber may attempt to grab worn items or sheathed weapons of the Target. This requires a successful Climb check opposed by the Target's attack roll. The DM may limit the exact actions taken, and must decide if the action is easily accessable (requiring a Standard action), or difficult to access. (requiring a full-round action) Drawing a sheathed weapon or grabbing a spear from a quiver might be a standard action, while attempting to unbuckle a saddle might be a full-round action. As a Standard Action, the Climber may Brace Themselves. This requires a successful opposed check, but grants the climber a +5 bonus to all opposed checks until their next action, provided they do not move. The following round, they may take actions as if they were not climbing (full-attack actions, using two-handed weapons, etc) As a Move action, the climber may move up to 1/4 of their speed along the target with a successful opposed check. They otherwise move with the Target and cannot influence its movement. Once per round, as a Free action, the Climber may attempt a Spot check (DC target's Armor Class) to locate to a "vulnerable spot". Climbers that have located and moved to a Vulnerable Spot may make the special action listed below. The DM is allowed to place the vulnerable spot where they feel is appropriate; certain types of monsters may not have any 'vulnerable spots'. (such as Constructs, Undead, Oozes, or other creatures immune to critical hits) As a Full-Round action, the climber may make a single attack against a 'vulnerable spot'. If successful, this attack is automatically a critical hit. (if a critical hit is rolled, increase the multiplier as follows: x2 weapons become x3, x3 weapons become x5, and x4 weapons become x7) A character may not attack the same Vulnerable Spot more than once, and must roll to locate a new one. If a monster has a vulnerable spot, but is normally immune to critical hits (constructs, undead), this attack does deal additional damage per the standard critical hit rules. What the Target can do The target does NOT lose Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. The target may become encumbered by the weight of the climber. The target may move as normal, modified by encumbrance. The target must roll a DC 15 Concentration check to cast spells or use spell-like abilities. The target gains a +2 Cover bonus from the Climber. Any attacks that miss the Target but would have hit without the Cover bonus strike the Climber instead; re-check the attack roll against the Climber's Armor Class. The Target may try to 'throw off' the climber. This is an attack roll opposed by the Climber's Climb skill check, modified as follows: *Free action: -5 penalty *Move action: no modifier *Standard action: +5 bonus *Full-round action: +10 bonus *Target is flying/swimming/burrowing while Climber does not have a fly/swim/burrow speed: +4 bonus If successful, the Climber is thrown into an adjacent square of the Target's choosing. The Target may Smash the Climber into an adjacent surface (walls, floor, ceiling). This is a Standard action that automatically deals Unarmed Strike damage plus strength modifier, and requires the Climber to roll an opposed check to remain on, or be moved to an adjacent square on the surface. The Target may attack the climber, with a -4 penalty. If the climber is on a 'vulnerable spot', this penalty increases to -6. The Target may initiate a grapple with the Climber as a free action, and immediately use Grapple checks as normal to inflict damage or pin the Climber. The Target may attempt to Crush the climber against an adjacent surface. This is a full-round action that automatically deals double Unarmed Strike damage plus x1.5 Strength modifier, and initiates a grapple check; if successful, the Climber is pinned and the Target is Grappling. If the grapple check fails, the Climber is still climbing and the Target is not grappled or grappling. (this is essentially the Target rolling over on the Climber) Speeding things up Instead of continually rolling checks, either the Target or the Climber may be treated as 'taking 10' based on which is acting. When the Climber is acting, the Target may be treated as 'taking 10', when the Target is acting, the climber may be treated as 'taking 10'. Creatures with Animal intelligence or less will not attack Climbers unless they take damage, but will attempt to throw off, increasing the action type used each round while moving. If attacked for damage, creatures with Animal intelligence or less will attempt to Crush or Smash. Meta It's meant to suck to be a Climber; this is the stuff of heroics. To climb up on the giant, find the gap between his helm and his chestpiece, and drive your two-handed sword into the gap requires a Standard action (climb on), a free action (Spot check), a move action (move up), a Standard action (Brace yourself), a move action (draw your two-handed sword) and a Full-Round Action (attack a Vulnerable Spot). For the Target, for the most part, it's meant to be easy to ignore or deal with climbers. Every round, they get a free chance to shake off a climber. If they want to really hurt the climber, they've got choices, but until the climber starts doing things to anger them, there's not necessarily a need to. There's still a lot of "DM decides" in here, because it's a tricky bit of business. Cutting the harness of a war-elephant's battle deck isn't something that the rules really spell out very well, and if the DM decides that the vulernable spot on the Huge Iron Statue is located at the top of its 40' head, the PCs will probably not be thrilled about the 3-4 rounds they'd need to climb up that high. I had to balance the coolness of stabbing the giant in his weak spot with the obvious player-abuse of trying to do so against each and every monster they encounter. |
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Wyrdson |
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Well, it is a cool maneuver, so make sure you don't Nerf it to the point that no one will want to try it!
One thing that springs to my eye is the loss of Dex bonus for the climber but not the climbed. It doesn't seem justified, and would be a huge problem for just the kind of character likely to try this. I would make it more like Grappling, since you are already using other aspects of the Grapple rules. Both retain Dex towards one another. If the character has a special ability or feat that lets them retain Dex bonus while climbing (Like the Master of Chains), I would let them keep it for this combat maneuver as well. I would also change the text from "1/4 their base movement" to "climb speed", for the same reason. |
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dok |
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One thing that springs to my eye is the loss of Dex bonus for the climber but not the climbed. It doesn't seem justified, and would be a huge problem for just the kind of character likely to try this. I would make it more like Grappling, since you are already using other aspects of the Grapple rules. Both retain Dex towards one another. Thought about that, but in the end, my reasoning was this: 1.) The Climber is, well, climbing. Climbing characters lose their Dex to AC; to offset some of this, if the Target tries to attack the Climber, he takes a -4 penalty. 2.) The Target isn't actually Grappling. He can move normally, draw weapons normally, attack normally. He's not wrapped up with another creature that's struggling against him as much as possible. I suppose an easy edit would be to say that the Target is automatically treated as having either Medium encumbrance (max dex +3, -3 check penalty, speed reduction), or Heavy encumbrance (+1 max dex, -6 penalty, speed reduction, Run reduction) based on size differences. Say, 2 size differences means Heavy encumbrance, 3+ is Medium encumbrance. And yeah, any ability that lets you keep your Dex to AC while climbing would apply. Same for subbing Climb Speed in. |
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Raidi Sovinfaile |
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*Thinks of new uses for Spider Climb*
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