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Antisoul	My PC's are Epic Fail [Help]	Lead	[-]
Posts: 2 (05/26/09 14:54:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I am beating my head against a wall attempting to come up with encounters for 3 level 1 PC's (all of whom roll natural 1's only slightly less than they roll dice), and according to both the pathfinder rules and the DMG, an appropriate encounter that is (easy) since (challenging EL = APL) encounter's always (and I mean always) destroy the party, I've even tried pitting them against a single, 1, solitary, desolate, lone, CR 1/4 zombie. The Zombie beat all 3 level 1 PC's (2 fighters and a barbarian). What is a DM to do?!? Side Note: The zombie only used its slam attack.
phindar		#1	[-]
Posts: 152 (05/26/09 15:31:51) Minimum 1 pt, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That happens a lot at first level, when most monsters have attacks that do a sizeable percentage (if not all) of a PC's hit points. (Granted, that zombie still sounds like the greatest zombie hero in the world, but still.) I would expect the problem to become less noticeable in the next level or two. I think the problem you'll be noticing next with that group is their lack of skills (kind of important) and magic (very important). Encounter design for a fighter-heavy group is a little weird-- I would say that they will typically outstrip most encounters except for the ones that they find all but impossible.
davetkwhite		#2	[-]
Posts: 71 (05/26/09 16:19:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You've got your work cut out for you creating encounters for this bunch - as phindar noted they're going to be missing a lot of the skills and talents that go into calculating a creature's CR. For instance, zombies actually have tons of hit points and decent damage for a low CR monster, but are balanced by the fact that any decent cleric can make them disappear with a wave of his hand. You might want to try to convince them to make a more balanced party, or failing that you could try introducing some variant rules to change the party balance a bit. Alternatively, you could give them some equally low-level NPCs to pal around with for a while to help balance out their skill set. I once ran a game with a 8+ man party and only one cleric, who was the player most likely to miss a gaming session. So they had a retainer, a low-level cleric from the "Aegis Azure" who was all to glad to heal them (though his vows meant that he could never heal without taking payment in exchange). They both hated and loved that guy. There are other things you can do without altering the party composition. Maybe the areas they're in are relatively safe and there's no real urgency to their actions, so the encounters can be tackled more slowly. All but the most fanatical of creatures will flee if they're significantly damaged. Perhaps their enemies are more interested in capturing the PCs alive, if only to find out what they know. And finally, there's always the "old school" admonishment - if a zombie is kicking your keister maybe you should be running from it.
Utgardloki		#3	[-]
Posts: 206 (05/26/09 17:45:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	One thing you could do is introduce something like Hero Dice. The way they work in many games is that players get a very limitted supply of Hero Dice, and when they don't like what happened, they can spend a Hero Dice to reroll the action. Maybe start each PC out with three Hero Dice and then they gain one Hero Die per level. There are many variations on this idea. One is where the players do not know how many Hero Dice they have because it is a random number secretely determined by the GM. Then they never know if they have run out and have to be careful, but there is some cushion for bad luck.
Utgardloki		#4	[-]
Posts: 207 (05/26/09 17:49:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Another thing you should consider is non-lethal encounters. Maybe the PCs have to get past the town guard. They can't kill her, because then they'd become outlaws, and probably lose any paladin and clerics in their party. But if they can get past her, they still get XP. This is also a useful way to try to teach players that you don't kill everything you encounter. There are lots of ideas for non-lethal encounters. Bar fights. Training exercises. Iron Golems. (There the idea is that players KNOW there is no way to fight their way past it, so they have to find the secret that lets them get by, thereby earning the story award.)
Ampherion		#5	[-]
Posts: 1896 (05/26/09 20:51:36) Shadowy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Have the local temple engage the party to do some busy work and pay them in healing potions...eventually maybe a cure light wand. At least they might have a chance to make it. It does really sound like the party mix is working. They are missing some significant component that is totally hosing them. Maybe introduce an NPC to cover the missing part? The only bad thing with that, is it has a good chance of being the "hero", and having an NPC be the hero all the time is like introducing Scrappy Do to the Scooby Do cartoon. Its unrepairable. 1A1S-060412-060806-N-W-523/1000-MX
JoeyJoeJoeJunShabadoo		#6	[-]
Posts: 1622 (05/27/09 07:19:41) That's the woist name I ever hoird Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I must say, this is hilarious. How you got a whole party of PCs with my luck, I'll never know. But it's funny. What davetkwhite said. I'd avoid using undead against a party of all fighters. In addition to the other ideas here, you could also send them on 'clean-up crew' type jobs. Like, say, more powerful fighters are too busy to deal with stragglers after an encounter. To make sure the job is complete, the PCs are sent to track down escapees. These creatures won't have all their hit points, and maybe not all their spells or abilities, but they can still be menacing. It's forcing the issue and might make the PCs feel like hirelings, I know, but it's an easy way for fighter types who roll badly to actually play their PCs. Don't hate the playa, hate the GaMe!
Jagyr Ebonwood		#7	[-]
Posts: 69 (05/27/09 10:30:41) What's going on? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Utgardloki wrote: One thing you could do is introduce something like Hero Dice. The way they work in many games is that players get a very limitted supply of Hero Dice, and when they don't like what happened, they can spend a Hero Dice to reroll the action. This is a good idea. I've used "d30 points" for a while in my games. You can spend a d30 point to roll a d30 instead of a d20. People get d30 points for bringing food, or doing something neat in character, or even just making everyone laugh. It's really minor, since 66% of the time it's no better than a d20. Of course, this only works if you have a d30 You might do something like Double Dice Points, which players can spend in order to roll two of whatever die they're rolling and keep the better result. Bad luck really sucks the fun out of a game, and it's hard to get around without feeling like you're "cheating" the system somehow.
Randall Jhen		#8	[-]
Posts: 847 (05/27/09 14:30:34) Unknown Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I've been digging through Savage Worlds lately, where rolls run from a d4-2 to d12+2 depending on how good you are at a thing. PCs and important NPCs (called Wild Cards) roll their trait die (say a fighter type has a d8 Strength) like anybody else, but they also get to roll something called a Wild Die -- an extra d6. They then use either their trait die or the Wild Die, whichever is higher. This is used for every trait/skill roll in the game, and Fight is a skill. Maybe you let your players roll a d20 and a d12 and let them keep whichever has the better result. Or, if you're generous, 2d20. ~ R. Jhen
Dogbert		#9	[-]
Posts: 73 (05/27/09 15:03:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	phindar wrote: (Granted, that zombie still sounds like the greatest zombie hero in the world, but still.) That's no zombie, that's possessed ASH from Evil Dead 2! Now, if you got sense of humor, grant XP to the zombie! 900XP for 3 CR 1 PCs, plus 100 for goal acomplished, make him into a recurrent villain, now with an extra undead hit die! If your PCs' dice are -that- jinxed my recommendation is using humanoid opponents, so defeat don't necessarily have to equal death (capture is just as good and works for dramatic tension). Granted, no skilled escape artist/locksmiths mean they can't escape on their own devices, so just give them some hell before opening a window of opportunity for them to try and escape. "It's the good thing of being a pessimist: You only get good surprises" --Strahd, "I, Strahd: Memoirs of a Vampire" Last Edited By: Dogbert 05/27/09 15:06:25. Edited 1 times.
Antisoul		#10	[-]
Posts: 3 (05/27/09 18:47:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	All of your replies are actually things I've done/considered and have failed, though I believe I've come up with a reasonable solution. As for the Zombie, yes I do have a sense of humor and the Zombie actually gained 2,700 experience points before the players gave up (900 xp for first TPK, 300 xp for one PC the other two fled, level 2 zombie then gained 900 xp for another TPK and then 600 xp at level 3 for taking down 2 PCs and the third player promptly slit his throat) the Zombie has become known as the 'Champion of Crypt 101' and a running joke amongst the group. I used to use Hero Points, which could be used for a variety of things and were awarded 1 per adventure and once per level up (which hasn't happened yet), needless to say their reroll's were as miserable as their first rolls often times worse. The players staunchly refuse to accept an NPC or a hireling claiming that every NPC they meet outshines them and steals their lime light (not supprising when the 'Champion of Crypt 101' beat three levels out of their sorry hides). I've given them oodles of potions, consumables, even a few potions of summon swarm and they refuse to use them for fear of needing them later (which consequently assures that they wont need them later if you catch my meaning). I've tried skill challenges and those have managed to gain the party a whopping 75 xp a piece, however one of my players managed to fail a DC 0 skill check (I use the natural 1 and 20 rules for auto-success/failure and to be honest I just had him roll because he wanted to roll dice even though I told him there was no need for a check, hence I set the DC to 0 and let him roll, he still botched it.) Ultimately I turned to my most experience player and said "I give up, you guys are absolutely horrible!" and he agreed to roll a second character (A cleric) and play both which brings the to a 4 man group with healers. Side note, Wand of Cure Light Wounds can only be used without a skill check by a Cleric, Druid, or 4th level Paladin or Ranger (or Favoured Soul etc.. anyone who has cure light wound on their spell list) otherwise it requires Use Magic Device to emulate the class feature, and thats a Rogue only skill (though I think every class should be able to at least cross-class in it).
PaRaLaX		#11	[-]
Posts: 234 (05/28/09 01:35:07) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You totally need to turn the champion of crypt 101 into a recurring villain. Maybe give him limited speech and a personality as well as a goal and optimized stats. =================== If pro is the opposite of con, progress must be the opposite of congress.
DerekDyer		#12	[-]
Posts: 7240 (05/28/09 11:48:47) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I played in a 3e D&D campaign where we used a deck of cards (each person had their own). We would draw 5 cards for a "hand" and then had to play all the cards to draw another hand. For the deck; Remove all face cards, add 10 to red cards. We would roll for skills and such, but attacks and other "major" rolls all were played from the hand. It was certainly interesting, and forced the law of averages. You got to choose when to roll that natural 20, but you were also forced to chose when to roll those natural 1's or other obviously miss rolls.
Confused Jackal Mage		#13	[-]
Posts: 6701 (05/28/09 12:32:14) Iron Liege Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's... that's brilliant. Imagine the culture we would live in now if, instead of a dead corpse on an instrument of torture, our signifier was a child staring in wonder at the stars.
SolissVL		#14	[-]
Posts: 698 (05/29/09 20:31:44) Minimum 1 pt, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is awesome. lol As a DM running a fighter heavy group (2 fighters, a warblade and my NPC cleric, well, there is 1 less fighter now..soon to get a wizard) it is tricky lacking arcane magic. Or at least 2 clerics one of whom actually gets to USE his offensive spells. Also, the lack of skill points becomes a bit of an issue too as they are like blind mice trying to find secret doors and traps. Not that they think to look for traps.... Also, DD, that is an awesome idea. -8 modifier to crunch-fu
phindar		#15	[-]
Posts: 155 (05/30/09 04:35:55) Minimum 1 pt, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A friend of mine had a thing in his game called the "Saved 20's". That is, any time a player rolled a 20 he or she could choose to apply it right then, or save it and reroll. Saved 20's could be used in the place of any roll. Players tended to save 20's rolled against mooks or minions and apply them to bosses, but there were times when they'd be used for other things, like Save or Dies. I have one player in my group that reminds me of the OP players. I was running a Gamma World game he was in years ago, and the group was trying to make their way through an abandoned compound by hotwiring doors, so there were a lot of skill checks. Out of five checks, he rolled three 20's, which were Crit Fails in those days (skills were roll under stat, like in 2e AD&D). He began to get frustrated and decided to just attack the doors, and the next two rolls he made were 1's. (His character ended up crippling himself with ricochet damage.) You can't fight luck like that.
Useless Trivia Man		#16	[-]
Posts: 54 (05/30/09 13:37:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A few years back I was running a low-level group through the (converted to 3.5) Hackmaster Little Keep on the Borderlands; the PCs very nearly lost what should have been an easy fight with a crew of drunken kobold frat-boys due to two epic fumbles. The PC monk had it worse - by rolling a perfect '00' fumble, he was out for three days (!) with a pulled groin. (Side note: I did love how well-written and detailed the adventure was, though we didn't get to finish due to bad player planning and the resulting TPK.) I've always used Fate Points in my games. (I stole it from one of my early DMs (thanks Steve, wherever you are), but I dunno where he got the concept.) A Fate Point (I've heard others call them Hero Points) allows the PC to cheat fate once; for example if he is the victim of a nasty crit or fumbles a Save-or-Die, he could use a FP to declare a re-roll. He could conceivably wind up with a worse fate on the re-roll, but that's fate for you. PCs start the game with a few FPs based on their race: halflings get 1d4+1, humans 1d4, half-elves, dwarves, half-orcs and gnomes get 1d3, and elves get 1d3-1. Other races get 1d2 FPs. There is only one way to gain another FP: draw the Fate card from the Deck of Many Things. Other than that, once your FPs are gone you ain't getting any more. FPs allow players to recover from unlucky dice rolls, especially in low-to-mid-level ranges before the party can easily deal with a suddenly-dead companion. I'm intrigued by Derek's card trick; I'd really be interested to see how well that works out. It'd be a pretty cool workaround for a group with few dice available between them. The Sunday Night Slammers "The ground is a +5 Weapon."
Antisoul		#17	[-]
Posts: 4 (05/30/09 19:45:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That deck of cards thing is simply ingenious, DerekDyer my good sir, you are a genius, a gentleman, and a scholar! I do have a solution I think will work as well first of all, my one player is playing his fighter and rolled up the characters brother who happens to be a cleric, another player rerolled as a ranger and the third is remaining as a barbarian, so we have some skills, some healing, and an animal companion. I may wind up sticking one player with an NPC hireling until they realize how damn useful hirelings are! Sometimes you really do need to just call the local dungeon sweeper up to go through and safely trigger or jam the traps, or a few 'well paid' mercenaries to catch arrows.
SolissVL		#18	[-]
Posts: 702 (05/31/09 16:12:29) Minimum 1 pt, right? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hirelings! How have I been forgetting hirelings?! headdesk Goes to roll up a guttermage for his party to hire in the city. -8 modifier to crunch-fu
DarkHero69		#19	[-]
Posts: 167 (06/03/09 07:20:39) Just showed up Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Lots of good replies so far but in my experience, fighters at low levels are the most consistent performers of any class. Especially with their high AC, high hit points, high damage (if they have high STR), non-stop attacks at low levels. Are you using "fixed" numbers of hit points, at least at first level? I find that rolling for hit points can ruin good characters, at first level I always give maximum hit points. So for Barbarians, 12, fighters = 10. When they level I give 75% of their possible hit points, so 8 for fighters, 9 for barbarians. Hit points are just too important to leave to chance I've found. If you're rolling and someone rolled less than "3" for hit points, that would explain a lot. Also, are you letting them know that (some) of their weapons look to be ineffective against the zombie? Damage reduction 5/slashing is huge, especially at 1st level. DR and high hit points for the zombie would explain a TPK also. As others suggested, using humanoids, creatures without damage reduction, and creatures with low (5) hit points would go a long way to normalizing this situation without resorting to alternative methods to keep them alive. Also, slightly fudging dice is ok if they're sucking one day and you're rolling like a god. Fudge is always ok, if used sparingly. Last Edited By: DarkHero69 06/03/09 07:23:30. Edited 1 times.
Antisoul		#20	[-]
Posts: 5 (06/08/09 21:28:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yeah after working with my players I've solved the problem, however as a side note, my players unanimously and firmly refuse hirelings or any NPC in their party of adventurers. I finally relented and said fine don't take them, since after all forcing it on them would only detract from their 'fun'.

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