Keep on the TPK-fell (SPOILERS)

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keteryck		#81	[-]
Posts: 8306 (06/04/08 10:56:02) Enigma Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	They have to have a level of play at which you have a limited set of options - there are just lots of people who need to grow into learning things. The 11th level characters my group was playing with last weekend had 2-3 at-wills, 4 encounters, 3 dailies, plus utilities, and that definitely made things more varied.
Braro		#82	[-]
Posts: 1646 (06/04/08 10:56:43) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I consider the lack of scaling and warning information for dealing with a number of players other than 5 a major failure of the module. I'll agree with you there. Although, Steinmetz's Law* makes me wonder if such a thing would be too confusing to new DMs, and possibly turn people off of it. I know Thac0 made me put away 2nd. Were they liking it because of the difficulty or despite it? I enjoyed my first session of 4e but not at all because of 4e. Rather, I managed to get three old members of my group back to the table. That's a good question, but impossible to answer from my end. Maybe you should ask on those forums? I found 4e a bit frustrating. As the cleric I never seemed to have enough healing to go around. And even though being able to hit things to heal is a feature of the system, I missed with Healing Strike all the time, thus denying my party that source of hit points. Finally, I know this is low-level play and the pre-gen cleric's powers are terrible but it felt like my old DM's complaint with the warlock class in 3e - I do the same thing every round (eldritch blast = lance of faith = sacred flame). To me, that's the basic level of what D&D is all about. Fighter swings his sword, wizard casts the spell, cleric does the prayer, rogue hits the guy in the kidneys. Over and over again. Granted, 4e mixes this up a little, but on some level that's always going to be there; it just depends on what level you look at. For my cleric, I did a righteous Brand / LoF combo, and really... Regretted it. The melee was nice, but it was a big pain in the butt to have to hit AC. Targeting Ref might be a simpler and better setup, and less prone to getting a kobold on your face. *If WotC gave out free money, people would complain about how it was folded. Last Edited By: Braro 06/04/08 11:15:02. Edited 1 times.
Eldric IV		#83	[-]
Posts: 9730 (06/04/08 11:08:09) Resident Paladin Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I understand that D&D has always been "I swing my sword" but I was hoping powers would actually break that up. Encounters and dailies do (when you manage to hit with them) but at-wills just change the basic action from "I swing my sword" to "I blast him with a shaft of heavenly light." I feel that flavor shifted in the wrong direction, even for a game of epic heroic fantasy. Final Words, before the battle with Demogorgon: My life does not matter. It was given to me to better the lives of my people. Please give the Pureblade to my son so that he may finish what I start here today.
Braro		#84	[-]
Posts: 1647 (06/04/08 11:10:37) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's a personal prefernce, Eldric; I can't really say anything to that. For me, I like having a "base magic attack" that a PC can use; you might not feel the same, and that's perfectly fine. 4E might not be the game for you; just like I can't play Vampire and I have one friend who has sworn off BESM. ---- EDIT: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=397944 This link is amusing, both in the context of our discussion, and out of it. Last Edited By: Braro 06/04/08 13:12:36. Edited 1 times.
madfox		#85	[-]
Posts: 6485 (06/05/08 01:03:49) That's a lot of posts. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I know most of my friends liked the adventure because of the danger. I also share Braro's opinion in regards to the at-will powers. Note that the way to make it less repetitive is actually to make the terrain interesting, and trying to get the players and monsters using that terrain. IH taught me a few things on how to do so, and since there are no full attacks anymore it is actually a lot easier to do so. Besides, it was rather rewarding when the cleric PC was pushed into a deep fast flowing stream and to suddenly have the PCs realize they can do the same as well... It took out the cleric for two rounds and the wizard for one while he rushed out to help the cleric get out of the water.
Jjarro		#86	[-]
Posts: 14 (06/07/08 21:16:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The fight with Irontooth sold my group on 4E, not that they needed a great deal of selling. They played the pregens, using the tiefling warlord instead of the cleric. The party of five barely survived the fight, and would have probably been destroyed if I hadn't decided that it counted as a "milestone" to get Irontooth to bloodied. I did this to help compensate for the fact that they hadn't taken a rest between the outside and inside encounters; I think they learned their lesson about unknown threats and resting. I informed them when Irontooth entered the fight that it would be a milestone that granted action points (which I failed to give them in the first place, having missed the part in the quick-start rules where it says you start with an action point after every long rest) if they bloodied him. Also, the warlord didn't realize that they had a healing power. So it might have gone in a little less dangerous direction if they'd had action points from the beginning of the encounter and made use of their full range of available powers. The turning point (and literal high-five and cheering moment) in the combat was when the Paladin healed the dwarf with an attack that also bloodied Irontooth, whom the dwarf then knocked into oblivion with an attack-action-point-attack-again, boosted by the warlord's ability to improve action-point attacks. All the other (conscious) characters then proceeded to unleash multiple attacks, (including an awesome one by the warlord using leaf on the wind to re-arrange the enemies for maximum effect) which pretty much cleaned up the melee, leaving only the ranged kobolds to deal with. By the time the last kobold hit the ground bleeding, there were only two conscious characters. I should also point out that a couple players spent the entire latter half of the battle predicting a TPK and the were planning to escape, leaving their allies behind, when they happened to bloody Irontooth, gaining an action point each. That's when they decided "screw it, let's just kill this guy." My favorite quote comes from when someone used the heal skill to allow the unconscious paladin to regain consciousness: "That's it! We win! We win." (Two players were dropped after this statement. They did, however, win due to that action.) It was exactly how I learned to like my tough encounters in Iron Heroes - almost deadly. "I shall choose friends among men, but neither slaves nor masters. And I shall choose only such as please me, and them I shall love and respect, but neither command nor obey. And we shall join our hands when we wish, or walk alone when we so desire." - Anthem by Ayn Rand Last Edited By: Jjarro 06/07/08 21:19:01. Edited 1 times.
theBlackJaw		#87	[-]
Posts: 1936 (06/09/08 07:57:13) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That sounds like a good time out Jjarro, and I expect that was the kind of battle they intended this adventure to provide. It is unfortunate that in designing it this way they made the encounter too bloody for a lot of other people. --BlackJaw "May the Orc spit in your Pie!" --BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-- GO d- s:- a- C++ UL->+ P+ L>+ E? W+++ N+ o? K? w+(-) O? M@ V? !PS PE@ Y+ PGP t-- 5-(+) X R++>+++$ tv+ b++$ DI++ D++ G e++ h+ !r y+ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
Knowe Remorse		#88	[-]
Posts: 1181 (06/09/08 08:23:30) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Braro wrote: To me, that's the basic level of what D&D is all about. Fighter swings his sword, wizard casts the spell, cleric does the prayer, rogue hits the guy in the kidneys. Over and over again. Granted, 4e mixes this up a little, but on some level that's always going to be there; it just depends on what level you look at. How in the heck is that D&D? My wizards and Clerics, bards, Druids, etc. NEVER did the same thing over and over. I had plenty of variety and multiple options. Now I have 1 or 2. Having 1 or 2 options is Diablo where I click my mouse repetitively. Thats not D&D. Never hit a man when he is down. Kick him, it's alot easier.
Vector Mangler		#89	[-]
Posts: 258 (06/09/08 08:45:31) What's going on? Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Knowe Remorse wrote: How in the heck is that D&D? My wizards and Clerics, bards, Druids, etc. NEVER did the same thing over and over. I had plenty of variety and multiple options. Now I have 1 or 2. Having 1 or 2 options is Diablo where I click my mouse repetitively. Thats not D&D. 1 or 2? I don't understand. Are you comparing high level 3e casters to 1st level 4e casters?
Carthain		#90	[-]
Posts: 13313 (06/09/08 09:07:37) Keeper of the FAQ Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To me ... D&D isn't defined by someone doing the same thing over again -- or by not doing the the same thing over again. It's more the feel of the world, of the "typical" problems that seem to infest it ... and these types of problems (due to it being a game) seem to typically be more plentiful than any similar fictional world that some other author creates. But, this is all a personal interpretation -- it's based on what I feel is important, and based on other experiences that I have had. (Which means I can't exactly tell people who disagree with me wrong -- so please don't think I'm doing so.) One of the most interesting things for me lately is seeing aspects of the game people feel is or isn't "D&D." Carthain. "Eschew Obfuscation."
Kadh2000		#91	[-]
Posts: 3376 (06/09/08 09:16:48) Smarter than your average Klingon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	We just got this module for our gg but haven't had a chance to play it yet. I'm going to be DMing and the fight with Irontooth, having generated so much discussion, was the first thing I looked at. I think there's good reason for some DMs to throw the entire group of kobolds + Irontooth at the party at the same time. In the encounter it specifically says (several times) that Irontooth and company arrive three rounds after the other kobolds. Taken in isolation, it's pretty obvious that you get to fight the minions for a bit first and thin out the opposition. Therein lies the problem. The previous encounter outside the cave also has a trigger for the three round countdown. If the slinger gets inside to warn the rest of the gang, then the three round countdown starts. Most parties will take that 5 minute rest, others may take more than two rounds to get through the rest of the opposition outside before going in. By the rules stated for this encounter, they'll meet Irontooth and all of the kobolds. So the DM is told in one encounter that the countdown has started and in another that he's to wait three rounds. As a DM for my group, I would have gone with the slinger having alerted the kobolds and Irontooth et al joining the others inside three rounds later. Kadh, who probably won't do that now, but you never know. Pippin: Are we lost? Merry: No Pippin: I think we are Merry: Shh. Gandalf's thinkin' Pippin: Merry? Merry: What? Pippin: I'm hungry
keteryck		#92	[-]
Posts: 8407 (06/09/08 09:59:06) Enigma Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Vector Mangler wrote: Knowe Remorse wrote: How in the heck is that D&D? My wizards and Clerics, bards, Druids, etc. NEVER did the same thing over and over. I had plenty of variety and multiple options. Now I have 1 or 2. Having 1 or 2 options is Diablo where I click my mouse repetitively. Thats not D&D. 1 or 2? I don't understand. Are you comparing high level 3e casters to 1st level 4e casters? Eh, it's probably not an argument worth pursuing. Given that a 1st level 4e character has 2 at-will options, 1 encounter, 1 daily, and a 1st level 3e druid has 2 daily options, it's abundantly clear that a fair comparison isn't being made from that respect. It is true that high level 3e characters can potentially have more options than high level 4e characters. For instance, a 3e caster might have, say, 16 good daily attack options, compared to 4 encounter, 3 daily from a 4e character (ignoring the 2 at-will and utilities). You could argue that if you assume the 4 encounters a day that the game espouses then it works out, but that's probably a rathole since many games not only stopped to rest as soon as you came anywhere close to running out of good spells but also only lasted a couple rounds per combat so you used up very few spells in the first place.
Braro		#93	[-]
Posts: 1750 (06/09/08 11:01:58) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Therein lies the problem. The previous encounter outside the cave also has a trigger for the three round countdown. If the slinger gets inside to warn the rest of the gang, then the three round countdown starts. Most parties will take that 5 minute rest, others may take more than two rounds to get through the rest of the opposition outside before going in. By the rules stated for this encounter, they'll meet Irontooth and all of the kobolds. The one in the previous encounter doesn't trigger the 3 round; it just alerts them, so that when the Pcs show up, Init starts (then the 3 round count down begins)
Kadh2000		#94	[-]
Posts: 3377 (06/09/08 12:14:16) Smarter than your average Klingon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The one in the previous encounter doesn't trigger the 3 round; it just alerts them, so that when the Pcs show up, Init starts (then the 3 round count down begins) I'd disagree with that from the way it is written: "... This means that the first wave of kobolds inside the lair is ready when the PCs enter the cave. This also begins the count for the second wave of kobolds, which enters the initiative order after 3 rounds." From that I interpreted it as saying.... Outside fight: Round n: slinger alerts kobolds in cave Round n+1: only 1st wave available Round n+2: only first wave available Round n+3:only first wave available Round n+4: second wave enters initiative order. Now if the party takes 5, the three round delay certainly passes based on the above quote. Whether this was the intent or not, it is easily open to the interpretation that is what happens. Pippin: Are we lost? Merry: No Pippin: I think we are Merry: Shh. Gandalf's thinkin' Pippin: Merry? Merry: What? Pippin: I'm hungry
Braro		#95	[-]
Posts: 1753 (06/09/08 12:15:36) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I took the this to refer to "when the PCs enter the cave." Even still, is Irontooth going to wait around the 5 minutes for them to take a short rest? I think he'd go back to his stuff after that.
Kadh2000		#96	[-]
Posts: 3378 (06/09/08 12:26:51) Smarter than your average Klingon Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Me, since it wasn't explicit about saying when the PCs enter the cave, I interpreted it the other way. That's possible. What I am saying is that it is perfectly understandable that DMs would start the countdown at the point the slinger warned the kobolds inside. Personal Opinion: Irontooth might go back to his stuff, but given the warning, I think he'd have to be crazy. Surely he knows about the mechanics of the game as much as a PC would. "Guys there gonna recover for five minutes and come charging in. Me and the bosses are gonna go play cards until they do. Keep alert." (This is justifiable. Given what I've heard about the deadliness of the encounter, this is now what I'll use if it comes to that.) OR "Guys there gonna recover for five minutes and come charging in. You two hide there, you stand with me here, those three over there, bob, at this corner, the rest of you get into position around the entrance. Any questions? Then move" spends the time prepping the defenses (this is justifiable too) Pippin: Are we lost? Merry: No Pippin: I think we are Merry: Shh. Gandalf's thinkin' Pippin: Merry? Merry: What? Pippin: I'm hungry
Yobgod		#97	[-]
Posts: 3150 (06/09/08 13:33:10) Mysterious Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"You two hide there, you stand with me here, those three over there, bob, at this corner, the rest of you get into position around the entrance. Any questions?" You ever try to get kobolds (or any minion for that matter) to stay on readied battle-station high-alert for five minutes? Most of them will get bored, tired, or distracted after just a minute or two.
evilWurst		#98	[-]
Posts: 1271 (06/09/08 13:38:37) Help me. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My group made some characters and started the module Sunday night, running through two encounters. It had definite TPK potential; only three of us and none a cleric, veteran gamers but not used to 4e yet... It's hard to perfectly judge things because we had a freakish number of 1s and 20s rolled, both us and the NPCs. We got lucky on one area attack in each encounter, and I think it probably saved us from eating a good 3-6 minion attacks. Whiffing on enounter (and daily!) powers really hurts too, but we landed a few of 'em. Even with the flipping through rulebooks to look stuff up, I can already see that the game flows better than 3.5, and I hope that scales as well with levels as I suspect it does. (We've had 12th level fights in 3.5 go like three hours!). In once sense I'm glad we were under the gun and undermanned. It was like getting singed a bit instead of merely being told 'fire bad!'. We would've steamrolled this if we had our other two regular players along, and thus we wouldn't have learned so much. Getting used to the death of Pythagoras took a bit - "dude slide back one square so I can hit TWO of 'em with scorching burst and not hit you!". Getting that flanking bonus made a huge difference too, since our rolls were frequently juuust a little too low without it.... and I found the Eladrin teleport excellent for a lower-risk flanking setup one-two punch if you time it right. We need a cleric, and we also need to pick up a healing potion or two to pour down the throat of the fallen
Braro		#99	[-]
Posts: 1756 (06/09/08 13:42:51) Cryptic Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Remember that you can use the Heal skill to both allow saves and to let someone use their Second Wind; it can be very very useful.
evilWurst		#100	[-]
Posts: 1272 (06/09/08 14:09:20) Help me. Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mm. We used the heal check to stabilize a dying comrade. On the other hand, that can be tricky to do in battle, since you need someone to actually go get next to the ally, in a square not threatened by a baddy... and I still took a hit before I got him stable, since my squishy unarmored wizard self presented a nice target to an archer...

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