-Arkenian
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Arkenian |
"metasong" feats |
Lead | |
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It says that in order to intensify a song you need to make a perform check as a free action. Does this mean you can only use it once per round, or can you use it as many times you'd like in a round? I ask because the party's bard (lvl 9) just laid down 18d6 damage with three sonic darts he intensified 100% in a single round. (He was hasted) and I'm uncertain whether this is actually legal, as I know that at least in some cases you can only make a single free action in a round. (Since my number crunching suggests that combinging this with weave note would make him at level 12 be able to dish 30d6 a round which is better than a sorceror can manage at that level (1 empowered fireball + chain lit = 27d6) against a single opponent.
-Arkenian |
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Carthain |
Re: "metasong" feats | ||
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The only thing that restricts the number of free actions in a round is what the DM feels is appropriate.
As for what he did... that seems fine. And your comparison to the sorcerer is faulty. That sorcerer can hit many more people with the fireball and lightning bolt, while the sonic darts can only affect one person. As well, the sorcerer will be able to hit opponents much farther away. Now, as for being able to intensify 3 sonic darts in a round at 9th level. 9 level == 12 ranks most (we'll assume he's maxed out his perform skill). Add in Skill Focus (Perform) for an additional +2.. that's +14 on his roll. And by 9th level, I'll also assume the bard has an 18 Cha by then. (so an additional +4). To double the damage for a sonic dart, you need to make a perform check of 25. With a +18 to their roll, they need a 7+, so 30% failure. Doing that 3 times in a round, you only have a 34% chance. So most of the time, your bard is not going to be doing quite that much damage (while at 9th level). And against multiple opponents, he's much weaker... a fireball becomes so much more effective. All in all, I wouldn't worry about it. |
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Postell |
re: Arkenian | ||
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I wouldn't worry about it too much either.
First of all, a 12th level wizard/sorcerer could do much better than 27d6 damage in a round to a single opponent. Let's take a look... Empowered Lightning Bolt (what's the point of chain lightning against a single foe?) and empowered fireball (just for variety). Throw in a quickened magic missile or Aganazzar's Scorcher, and you're doing either... 30d6 + 5d4+5 or 30d6 + 30d6 + 5d8. You're not having to make three touch attacks either, and you can hit opponents at long range. Don't forget that you can get lace spell feats that'll do an additional d6 damage per spell. The wizard or sorcerer could also still move 30 ft in that round, which is not an insignificant advantage. I've heard a few people, though not too many, suggest that Monte's Bard variant is a bit too powerful, but I don't agree. The normal 3e Bard gets the shaft. Next to wizards and sorcerers, they're the worst melee class; they have low hit points; and they're the worst spellcasting class (unless you count Paladins and Rangers). Their special abilities are nothing great either. Now, Monte's Bard is more powerful, if perhaps slightly less versatile, but it is by no means too powerful in comparison to other classes. A well-played cleric, wizard, or sorcerer should have the odds in their favor against a well-played bard, and I wouldn't put it past a nicely put together fighter to carve one up either. One thing I might consider doing, though, is to limit bards to using one weave note or chord or melody per round. Or perhaps limit them to using any single effect once per round. As in they could use three weave notes, but they would have to be one for damage, one for range/duration, and one for DC. As for free actions and "metasong" feats, Bards are already having to sing or play music to cast their spells, so rolling a perform check just indicates whether it's good enough to give whatever extra added effect it's aiming for. One thing I wouldn't allow, though, is stacking of metasong feats (i.e. intensify and vivify and sustain song all on the same spellsong). Or, if I did allow it, I'd make it take longer to cast: spellnotes take a partial, spellchords take a full, and spellmelodies maybe not possible. |
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Postell |
Correction | ||
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I wrote 30d6 + 5d4+5 or 30d6 + 30d6 + 5d8. I obviously meant 30d6 + 5d4+5 or 30d6 + 5d8.
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Torgalw |
Re: Correction | ||
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I lurk these boards but rarely post but this topic has recently been brought up in my own game so I would like input from everyone about how I consider handling it.
Thinking back to what some have said (Monte himself?), that if something seems to be too good then it probably is, I have considered that the Intensify Song feat is too good. There is no penalty for failure and it is a free action. Use it every single time you cast a damaging spellsong. Why not? failure means you cast as normal, success means more damage. You have nothing to lose. I feel this is a bit too strong for a free action. I for starters limit one free action a round. I also believe failure to intensify the song results in screwing up the Spellsong. In trying to intensify it you are altering the verbal casting of it. You screw that up you ruin the spell. Does this sound too harsh? I would like characters to consider using the intensify song feat but knowing there is a cost. "Hmm... I can guarantee damage or I can give it my all and try to really hurt him" Just my thoughts. -Torgal |
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Carthain |
Re: Correction | ||
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I think that if you want to limit it, one Intesified spellsong per round should do it.
Remember, they did spend a feat on this, so if you force them to screw up if they fail the check, then it makes the feat much weaker than other feats they could take. |
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Arkenian |
Re: "metasong" feats | ||
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Well, the level 9 bard actually has a +25 perform check with his instrument: 22 cha = +6 (18 base, +2 from bonus ability points, +2 enhancement bonus from a cloak of cha) +2 competence bonus (circlet of persuasion) +2 circumstance bonus (masterwork instrument) +12 ranks +3 skill focus. So he always succeeds in intensifying spellnotes 100%. (I'm aware that parts of this are my fault, including ruling for the +3 skill focus alternative) I'm thinking of ruling that the circlet of persuasion doesn't apply to combat perform checks, and I'm going to be a real stickler about making sure he has his instrument out if he's using it, but the point remains, especially given that there's no critical failure of skill checks.
27d6 is the limit for a sorceror in the PHB, who can only metamagic one spell in a round and can't quicken . . . though if you allow the arcane preparation feat (which in fact I do) that problem is solved. I do take the points on multiple opponents and range, and in fact, in this particular combat, the final opponent kept himself alive for quite a while merely by staying out of range. As to the subject of how to revise things I think failure if you fail the perform check is too harsh particularly if combined with limiting it to 1 per round. I /had/ considered if you fail the perform check having damage reduced by 1 die or 50%, but as I pointed out above, that wouldn't change things for me anyhow. In many ways, my concern isn't really so much the actual damage figure coming from a bard, its that he's using so few /spellnotes/ to do it. (Which combined with the ability to break chords into spellnotes means he can keep it up for a /long/ time). A sorceror or wizard metamagicing a spell bumps it to a higher spell level (as does a bard when he uses the weave ability), a bard using metasong has absolutely no penlaties for things that would cost a sorceror or wizard several spell levels(doubling the damage would be +4 spell levels). As a sidenote, this means that I don't see any need to limit the number of times a bard can weave in a round. On the whole, when I originally looked at the metasong feats, I agreed with Postell: Bards are already performing to cast their spells, and a metasong feat was just stressing a particular aspect of the performance with a perform check to see if they did it well enough. Only one metasong feat could be applied to a spell. I rather like postell's idea of having it take a bit longer and allowing more from an abstract standpoint, another possibility is you up the DC. (You declare all the metasongs on a spellsong, then make a perform check DC=DC of highest metasong effect + 1/4th the sum of the DCs of the secondary metsong effects) However, in consideration of game balance for the moment I think I'm going to have to stick with 1 metasong feat applied per round on the theory that applying one is an extra effort above the standard casting. I remain curious what Monte was thinking on this subject when he wrote it, as opinion seems fairly evenly split. -Arkenian the Golden |
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Unregistered(d) |
Re: "metasong" feats | ||
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*bump* I think we need Monte's opinion..
Rain |
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Monte Cook |
Re: "metasong" feats | ||
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The PH says that a PC can take as many free actions in a round as the DM will allow.
I think, after reading your post, that you should only allow one free metasong feat action a round. Monte
http://www.montecook.com |
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Pevishan |
Re: "metasong" feats | ||
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I would personally only allow a person to use a feat once a spell song.
Power Corrupts. Absolute Power is kinda neat. |
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Lord Azathoth |
The New Bard is Fine as is | ||
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Hey everyone!
I had played an original style bard up to 6th level in our campaign before giving up due to the extreme lack of fun (and the fact that I had to wait three more levels before taking any fun prestige classes). However, I did like the character so when Monte's new Bard came out my DM conspired to throw him back in the game by converting him to the alternate version and raising his level to 14 to match the others (since I had played another character in the meantime). I had always envisioned my bard as more of a fast talking force of sonic destruction than a user of charm spells, and Monte's version allows me to choose to move away from the influence and inspire courage stuff and into the neat little cantrips that make the bard so much fun to play. Okay, so to address the overpowered concern everyone seems to have, we had a combat with a demon and here's how it went: Round 1: The Demon is 30 yards away, and I rolled a high initiative so none of the melee fighters had closed with it yet. I fired off two Sonic Darts. On the first one I made the ranged touch attack and beat the spell resistance, but fumbled the Forte feat roll and so only did 4d6, which turned out to be 16 damage. For the second one I made the attack and Forte rolls, but missed the Spell Resistance, so it fizzled (it was easier to roll 3 different colored d20's all at once to speed things up, if you're wondering why I bothered with the Forte roll at all). So after round one, two sonic darts had inflicted 16 points of damage, pretty good for a bard, but worse than anyone else in the party by far. I started wondering what everyone has been bitching about. Round 2: A second demon dropped into melee range with us, so I called up a Sonic Stab. I used the Forte & Sustain Song feats on it successfully, then for my standard action attacked with it, dealing 1d8+14 x2 = 32 points of damage. Twice as good as last time, and respectable damage for any character class. Now we're talking. Round 3: Since the dagger was still in existence and I knew I wouldn't have to roll spell resistance again, I stabbed the demon a second time. I then had a move action left, so I followed up with a Sonic Dart. Total Daamge=74. Wow. 44 from max damage from the stab and 30 from 8d6 from the Dart. But by then the rest of the party had successfully paralyzed the demon, hit it with 3 critical hits, and killed them both. I wasn't exactly feeling overpowered. Especially when the first spell the Cleric cast gave us all +4 AC and spell resistance. My spells weren't exactly looking all that buff anymore. That's not a complaint by any means. What I'm saying is that I don't feel the feats overpower the spellsongs at all. I mean, our sorcerer was casting disintigration and the ranger was doing 50-70 points of damage with swords. I'm just saying let the new bards stack their feats and have their fun. I don't see any problem with it. |
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The Hag |
hmm | ||
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I am inclined to agree...
-The Hag |
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akbearfoot |
Re: "metasong" feats | ||
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*cough 3e bards suck cough*
People get mad when I say that the 3e bards got the shaft. I SO want to try out one of these alternate bard packages! I'll buy the book soon as I see it on the shelves! |
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Monte Cook |
Re: "metasong" feats | ||
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Should be out now.
Monte
http://www.montecook.com |
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