Kadh's Impressions of 4e

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Carthain) — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:30:01 GMT

Vampus wrote:
* Disarm and sunder are gone even though players are going to want to do this stuff at least once per campaign.

If you try to add theses mechanics, you need to rework hardness and wizard implement mechanics. The biggest part of this issue is that you can nerf the rules all you want, but you can't nerf the imagination.

Why do you need to rework hardness? 4E doesn't use...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Cthon) — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 04:58:47 GMT

Nivek: Some of those options have come and gone and returned during the 25+ years you are talking about. I've played D&D since the early 80's, like you, and I have had every edition during that time. Heck, my first set of rule books were AD&D harcovers from 1979.

Funny thing, though, when 2e first came out, I was really annoyed that monks and assassins didn't make it in, that druids were just specialty clerics, and what they did with bards (though I didn't...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Nivek Loneshadow) — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 02:57:23 GMT

Carthain wrote:

Carthain: Standard = what we're used to as the default in a PH (3e since I've been playing it for a long time). Gnomes, bards, monks, druids, barbarians.

See .. I can't really see that the past 8 years of 3.x has made those "standard" more than the previous years of books worth of inertia.

Now, don't get me wrong ... I'm...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Vampus) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:59:48 GMT

Carthain wrote:
Vampus: Why should that line be an error? What's wrong with being hidden -- and staying hidden while someone comes around the corner. Normally they would see you, but with this ability you are treated as being invisible (so long as you don't move from that spot.)

It might not be an error. If it's not, I don't like it though, especially considering how well Bling Fighting works in...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (keteryck) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:26:27 GMT

As DM, I like throwing saves on players, but am less big on saves on my guys unless they're solo. Rather it was just clearcut 'until end of X turn', moving right along.

But, I am a lazy DM

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (zadoc) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:33:30 GMT

See, my argument is that durations require you to track two things - what effects are currently affecting you (including what they do) *and* when they wear off. Saves just require you to remember the former, as you then just save against everything.

Well, saves just require you to note what is affecting you and what they do, but also what keywords the effect has, what your modifier for saves is on each effect, and rolling and determining your success...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Confused Jackal Mage) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:50:26 GMT

And everything that you didn't save against last round.

Sorry, I meant effects that actually had some effect on you during the round, not those that hit you this round. That's easy to remember, as it requires no more mental effort than actually applying the effects in the first place.

If we weren't playing a game where you have to keep track of various states and conditions and sitting at a table surrounded by pencils and...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Cthon) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:47:54 GMT

CJM: I agree with you, actually, on all points.

What I'm saying though, is that some players really like different spells having their own mechanics. Some players prefer to have situational rules, abilities that are only useful in a very narrow range of scenarios. Some players like things to be difficult. For some, that is part of the fun.

Do you know people that like games like Squad Leader or War of the Ring, for instance? How about folks that preferred THAC0 to BAB,...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (zadoc) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:23:04 GMT

You don't think so? I think simply rolling for everything that effected you that round would be pretty easy.

And everything that you didn't save against last round.

But, it's not that rolling for saves is hard. But, I think rolling a save against multiple effects is going to take far more time than noting that a round has passed, and various effects will now last one round less.

Much easier than trying to...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Confused Jackal Mage) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:11:32 GMT

I don't think that's the intention of the new 'saves instead of durations' concept. I don't see, at all, how making a roll for each effect on you at the end of each round is any easier than counting rounds.

You don't think so? I think simply rolling for everything that effected you that round would be pretty easy. Much easier than trying to remember what round an effect was cast in and who cast it on what initiative count (if you...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (zadoc) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:00:29 GMT

I'm also obliged to point out that not every single idea could make it into the PHB. Instead of pointing at an NPC Dwarf in the MM and saying here is something a PC can't do, and that's bad... instead be happy. Be happy that with the limited room they had to fit things in, that they *didn't* put alot of powers and such in more than one place. They decided the best places to slot ideas into mechanics and get them in there at all.

The...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Confused Jackal Mage) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:04:34 GMT

Cthon:
Blarg. We're still talking past each other. We can look at the archetypal example here, the Grapple rules. The 3e grapple rules were fairly complex and fiddly. While you could memorize them easily enough if you really tried, very few people did because there really wasn't a need.

Or, another example, this time from 4e. The At-will/Encounter/Daily structure provides a regularity over the rules governing how often one can use an ability. This does not in any way...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (DerekDyer) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:37:20 GMT

Indeed. 3e was quite a guilty pleasure for me, for that reason. Especially Prestige Classes. I love doing something complicated or difficult with ease while other people stumble on it...

However I also enjoy watching someone complete difficult tasks with apparent ease...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (keteryck) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:46:06 GMT

Yep - the wizard is one example of a more complex class, the life stealer is a bit of a complex paragon path. I wonder what a _truly_ complex 4e class will look like, though.

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Cthon) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:41:14 GMT

CJM: I was actually talking about complexity of use. Many players really like a game that involves complex rules that require real expertise to understand and use in the game.

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Confused Jackal Mage) — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:41:04 GMT

Cthon:

For some players, having a lot of simplicity makes the game less fun. In a way, I think E.G.G. might have been a player like this.

Right. I don't mean simplicity in absolute terms. It's more of an idea of ease-of-use, rather than a paucity of options.

Zadoc:

Were that true, that would be fine. If one dwarf only bashes people with his shield when it is most useful for him to...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (DerekDyer) — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 21:29:22 GMT

Becoming a PC shouldn't mean that you are incapable of being trained as well as other dwarves in dwarven combat techniques. If there's going to be a difference, it should be that the PC is *better* at being trained in dwarven combat techniques.

I really don't want to get involved in this discussion that is mostly based upon opinion. Though I do wonder about how fundamentally Dwarven those combat techniques really are.

I'm also...

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (keteryck) — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:14:41 GMT

I'd cheerfully allow a PC to follow NPC rules... as I commented elsethread I think it'd be a good way to offer a player a simpler play experience without tracking all the different choices and resources.

So, if a player wants to learn the 'cooler' shield bash that dwarven hammerers learn, they could convert over - or just accept that by hyperspecialization (giving up _5_ other abilities and _all_ class features) the dwarven hammerer knows something they don't....

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (zadoc) — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:14:53 GMT

Namely, science places a premium on accuracy and precision. As a result, any field of science will give approximately the same answer (modulo the field's own development and rigor). Games value different things: namely, fun and simplicity (really, just fun, but simplicity is often/usually a general requirement for fun). And indeed, if you look at 4e, the different fields (rules for players and rules for DMs) are largely the same in both fun and simplicity....

Re: Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Arlechino) — Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:32:36 GMT

*blush* Oh.... right...

Kadh's Impressions of 4e

feeds@yuku.com (Kadh2000) — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:18:15 GMT

(heck, if others can do it, why not me?)

Player's Handbook:
Incomplete: especially classes and races. Yeah, they're gonna come out later (I hope) but I wanted to see the full range of standard PC races and classes in the PH. Tieflings: not as cool as they were. Dragonborn: reasonable replacement of Aasimar.
Combat: That looks like it will be awesomely fun. Forget doing it all in your imagination though....